The Paesanos Podcast

Sean Lukasik (00:06.102)
Maddy Masiello, thank you for doing this.

Maddy (00:08.581)
Thank you for having me, Sean. I got to tell you as an Italian, being on a Paesano's podcast is really up my alley. So I'm happy to be here.

Sean Lukasik (00:13.858)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (00:17.318)
Yeah, perfect fit. And I know that it's probably a little bit weird. You're usually on the other side of the podcast production space, meaning you're not being recorded, you're doing the recording.

Maddy (00:27.941)
I know, this is crazy to be behind a microphone and to not be like checking levels and all of that stuff. So I appreciate you taking the reins of that for me today, Sean, this is great. Good, good, yeah, you're sounding good to me.

Sean Lukasik (00:37.726)
I'm doing my best. I'm not a professional, but the levels seem good right now. And

Great, good, thank you. I may turn over some of the production reins to you at some point. So Maddie, it's really great to talk to you about podcasting on a podcast, pretty meta conversation that I'm sure we'll have today. But I wanted to have you on because I've been thinking a lot as I've done this production myself. And of course, just in the way that audio content kind of fits in the space of the grander internet.

Maddy (00:47.677)
Hehehe

Maddy (00:56.841)
Totally meta.

Sean Lukasik (01:13.454)
content and the things that just kind of go out every single day. And I've often thought that like audio is sort of that content that sounds that seems like it's an outdated thing, right? Like it was the first of the traditional media or the second I should say there was print and then there was audio and everyone had a radio set and they would we hear about our parents generation gathering around the radio for shows and things and now

Maddy (01:28.969)
Sure.

Sean Lukasik (01:40.002)
I feel like I'm doing that in some ways. Like I can't wait for certain podcast episodes to drop. Why do you feel like audio content is thriving the way it is today?

Maddy (01:52.765)
Sure. And I mean, you're right in the sense that audio was first. I think of the way that media is iterated today, it usually starts with audio. I think in large part, that's because of different platforms. It's a pretty easy one to manipulate. But I remember going back, I interned for a radio show in college. And even then it was like seven or eight years ago and I still had to explain to everybody I knew what a podcast was.

And now you don't really have to do that. It's kind of everywhere. And I think with podcasting, they've really met people where they are. And then when you think about older media too, you could say, you know, podcasting is to radio as streaming services is to cable. You know, you've taken this kind of media that really only a few people got to produce and distribute and you've kind of turned it on its head and made it on demand for everybody.

You made it less regulated. And I think in the case of podcasting that goes even further because now by and large it's free. You could pay for a Spotify premium subscription, but if you really wanted to, usually you can find this kind of content for free. So you've made it that much more accessible. And again, you've just given it ways to manipulate and iterate in ways that I think other media isn't always able to do.

Sean Lukasik (03:19.894)
Yeah, and it's interesting. It is free in some ways. But of course, we're seeing more and more opportunities for content creators to have paywalls around certain content and in some cases around all of it. But also the way that ads show up in podcasts has really, I think revolutionized how local advertisers can put their ads out there, how they can drop into

Maddy (03:33.533)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (03:49.968)
episodes rather than just being read by the host? And do you think that that's just kind of continuing to push this content forward?

Maddy (04:00.133)
Absolutely. I think when you integrate ads, then you have like a whole other interest share in this media that you're making. And I think podcasting too, because anybody can do it, and I do say anybody can do it, not everybody should do it, but because anybody can do it, I think, I don't even know where I was going with that. Hold on a second. Yeah.

And so I think because anybody can do it, you've seen ways where podcasting, the goal isn't always subscription numbers. I think for a lot of people, the goal is advertising and making money. But I've worked on shows where the goal was just to be like an internal resource for companies, for their employees. I've worked on shows where the podcast was just a marketing tool for something bigger. And I think even you think about...

like at the end of an HBO show, how they advertise their own podcast to do like a deeper dive into that content. So in that way too, I think podcasting can be used as like an addendum to the thing, not just the thing. And I think advertisers have been made aware of that and have really tried to capitalize on that space.

Sean Lukasik (05:19.338)
Yeah. And I think about like when I create podcasts for my clients, um, in the marketing world, it's kind of nice because it, by recording one episode, you get multiple pieces of content. Of course you get the podcast itself, but then the video and clips that you can put on social media and the transcripts that you can put into writing that search engines can read. Um, and then you can build a blog post out of it and just all of those things. Um, and it makes me think of sort of the.

days of blogging when not everyone had a blog, but now, and I absolutely, yeah, exactly. And it's not anymore. And I'm talking about both blogging and podcasting and, and as someone who just like, started this up on my own, you know, I know that I'm lumped in but what do you feel is problematic about the fact that sort of anybody can just

Maddy (05:53.277)
right. It seemed exclusive. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (06:15.958)
Do this and put content out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever they want.

Maddy (06:20.797)
Totally. And I mean, like anything else on the internet, I think it's up to you to kind of be discerning. But I think there are a few specifics with audio and with podcasting that kind of make it uniquely hard. I think the first is that it's really easy to conflate somebody with a microphone as to being an authority figure on a subject and just whoever's the loudest voice in the room. And I think that goes beyond, you know, I think most people

are pretty skeptical online of what people are saying, but I don't know if that's really totally extended to the way that we vet podcasts. At the same time, now, it's not hard to make a quality podcast either with the type of gear and supplies available to everybody. And I think that has made it.

an interesting challenge to weed out. I also think audio itself is pretty intimate. So I think that's a double-edged sword, but on the negative side, I think it's really easy to kind of create deeper parasocial relationships in that way too. Especially when you are thinking about shows that are personality driven, not so much news, but kind of, this is what my life looks like. I'm going to talk about it.

I think it's really easy to think that all of that A is true. I've worked on shows that are just kind of lifestyle and you know, most things are exaggerated or made up just to be funny and that's not to say that that's bad. But just understanding where that content is coming from and kind of being the judge of that is also really important.

Sean Lukasik (08:08.624)
Yeah. That's so interesting what you said about audio being an intimate form of content. What do you what do you mean by that? Or where do you arrive at that?

Maddy (08:21.313)
Yeah, I mean, if you go back to history, like you were talking about in traditional media, and you think about radio, when I think about that, I guess I think about fireside chats with FTR, and like all of a sudden, you had the president of the United States through this new media, like in your living room. And now with podcasting, and I think especially with post pandemic podcasting, like not only is that subject or that show in your living room, but you're in theirs.

Sean Lukasik (08:32.523)
Yeah.

Maddy (08:51.237)
And I think that can be a really good thing and that really deepens the relationship that you can have with your media. But at the same time, it's a double edged sword that I think, especially now, again, in the post pandemic world is like even trickier to navigate.

Sean Lukasik (09:09.134)
trickier to navigate in a post pandemic world because we got closer to it.

Maddy (09:13.273)
I think so, yeah. And again, it just, you know, I don't have numbers in front of me, but if I think about how many shows really took off because people were kind of creating that connection during the pandemic, I think, you know, there's a lot of layers to that and it's interesting to kind of dissect how we got there and what people were craving and how podcasts specifically delivered that.

Sean Lukasik (09:37.162)
I think some of the best writers in the world, many of whom are employed at the New York Times are able to get their voice through on the page. But I love what you're saying, because now I'm just thinking out loud about like, when I read a story, I'm hearing it in my own voice, even if there is personality attached to it, that's not mine. But when I'm listening to

Michael Bobaro, you know, he's got a very specific personality and a very specific delivery that does feel very intimate. And and I'm sort of like, What do you mean he wouldn't know who I am if I showed up in the studio?

Maddy (10:07.561)
Totally. Yep.

Maddy (10:16.125)
Exactly. Yeah. We receive emails a lot from just people who have... Sometimes they're great suggestions, sometimes they're fact checks, things like that. And then every now and then Michael will reply to the person. And I like to think about that person just sending an email to a general daily drop. And then all of a sudden you have Michael Bobaro in your inbox. That's pretty funny. So in that way he's fulfilling the parasocial relationship.

Sean Lukasik (10:23.496)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (10:42.611)
I wonder

Maddy (10:45.105)
But he's allowed to do that.

Sean Lukasik (10:46.358)
Right, right. I wonder, does do his emails have like lots of spaces in between words and sentences? Okay, I had to ask. Why is it I mean, there, so there's lots of audio content out there. And of course, setting music aside and the way that we access the entire library of music that exists in the world. Thinking about narrative

Maddy (10:54.439)
No, no, it's pretty straight-laced. Yeah.

Maddy (11:09.425)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (11:16.21)
audio content, or conversational audio content? Why do you think it's podcast? I mean, is it the accessibility? Is it the variety? Like, or is it just all those things? Like, why is where podcast the thing that are just seem to be continuously? I won't even say exploding, because it's just like so sustained.

Maddy (11:38.397)
Sure. I mean, that's a good question. I think the answer to that is like a yes, all of the above. I think to really understand it, you probably have to look at serial, which was kind of the biggest boom and what kind of set, you know, term podcasting on its head and what made it so known to everybody. And that kind of was a, you know, starting point for true crime, which I'm sure is one of the biggest genres in podcasting that you can have.

And the way that audio itself lends itself to storytelling, you can, again, music aside, just in terms of sound design, in terms of field tape, really meeting the listener where they are and giving audible cues as to, hey, this is the direction that a story is moving. We always say with our composition team, it's not so much making somebody feel something. It's...

just enhancing what they should already be feeling. And I think that's a really special way that audio does that too. I'm thinking now of an example for the daily, I think probably a year and a half ago when the country hit 1 million COVID deaths. And we asked for listener voicemail, listener voicemails. They sent it to the email about, you know,

somebody that they knew from COVID. And it really just kind of, we like the sound designers did a really great job of weaving in those voices all throughout the episode, kind of making like a rain of these listeners who were heartbroken, who were angry, who were coming at it from all different perspectives. And it was really heartbreaking to listen to, but I think there's a reason that you're gonna listen to that daily episode rather than read an article, just because it takes it so much further.

Sean Lukasik (13:32.844)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (13:36.114)
Yeah. Now, one of the things I wanted to ask is, there are so many different styles of podcasts, not only in in, you know, the content itself, or the genre, but in the way that it's delivered there, there are, you know, storytelling with music and with a variety of voices and even characters. There are straightforward interviews like this. There.

Maddy (13:55.433)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (14:05.806)
are one person deliveries there and there's you know, everything sort of in between. I know you don't have like stats right in front of you. But do you have a sense for what is most popular sort of what resonates most with the listening audience?

Maddy (14:13.053)
Hehehe

Maddy (14:21.105)
I think, again, I'm going to say it depends, and everything lives on a spectrum, so I'm sorry that I can't give you a clear answer. But I think what successful podcasts do well is just understanding their audience and figuring out what they like and figuring out what is my role in this landscape and how am I going to give it to my listeners. I personally prefer just shorter podcasts.

Sean Lukasik (14:24.342)
Yeah.

Maddy (14:49.521)
That's because I'm probably more of a passive listener, and I think a lot of people are too. I think that's another way that podcasting can be really successful, because you think about the ways that people are listening, and it's on their commute, it's while they're doing chores. So it's like, how do we even subliminally add this into somebody's daily habit? But it could also be really active as well. You can, like a book club.

Sean Lukasik (15:11.532)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (15:17.353)
There are podcasting clubs, I'm sure you see that on TV. That's the whole point of murders in the building. That's the whole point of only murders in the building. And so that's funny, again, in the way that podcasting finds itself in other media too. So yeah, I think, again, the medium lends itself to so many different things. That's a good thing. I don't know if there is one larger preference than another.

Sean Lukasik (15:25.368)
Yes.

Sean Lukasik (15:47.067)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (15:47.459)
But it's just how do you best utilize that for what you're trying to do?

Sean Lukasik (15:50.874)
Yeah, and that makes that totally makes sense. And I guess if that's maybe we should just end the conversation if you like shorter. But no, yeah. And honestly, like, as you're saying that, too, I'm thinking about like different times of day or different situations, like, I love saving up certain podcasts or certain episodes of a podcast for a road trip. And there are

Maddy (15:58.521)
Yeah.

Maddy (16:08.105)
Totally. Mm-hmm.

Maddy (16:14.225)
Me too.

Sean Lukasik (16:15.282)
are some that like I have to listen to every day. And under like as part of my morning routine. Yeah.

Maddy (16:21.241)
Yeah, it's like a compulsion. Yeah. And I think news lends itself to that really well, obviously. I think something like serial or true crime, again, you're so invested. There's an element of suspense. It evokes even deeper emotions because you're scared and you're trying to make sense of the world around you. So I think that also forms a habit. So yeah, it's exciting all the different ways that you can utilize it.

Sean Lukasik (16:46.986)
Yeah, I think the last time this last season of cereal I listened to in its entirety on a dry on a six hour drive recently where I just like, I thought I'd listened to an episode or two and then put some music on and then find some no, it was the entire season. Yeah.

Maddy (17:03.685)
this whole time. And that can take a toll on you too, especially because if I'm listening to a true crime podcast, if I'm on a road trip, I'm probably driving through small towns and rural roads. I'm extra scared. Now, my whole life is just painted a picture of the same backdrop that these accounts were. And so it's funny how life imitates art.

Sean Lukasik (17:14.497)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (17:23.348)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (17:29.346)
Totally. So we've talked and danced around this idea of news and obviously the role of podcasting, especially at the New York Times is to deliver news in a variety of different ways. There's very straightforward like the headlines or the daily and then there are almost what I would think of as like news magazine type like serial, more documentary style. And

Maddy (17:47.305)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (17:53.982)
Totally.

Sean Lukasik (17:57.534)
I'm curious because we've seen Twitter just become all but like decimated at this point. But that was really a place. And I say was for myself, I'm sure it still is for a lot of people. But that was really a place where a lot of discourse happened around the headlines and around the news of the day. And with that kind of

Maddy (18:15.773)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (18:21.758)
all but going away and nothing to really replace it. Have there been conversations in the studio or at the company around whether the evolution of audio content might include some social integrations?

Maddy (18:39.141)
I mean, I hate to break it to you, but I'm so low on the totem pole at the New York Times that I don't know what the company is talking about in that regard. But yes, I think that in terms of news, it can be tricky because like you said, if you're kind of looking for this two-way dialogue, like if you're trying to build those relationships, the straightforward news...

Sean Lukasik (18:46.798)
I'm sorry.

Maddy (19:08.957)
the straightforward news podcasts aren't set up to give you that. And that's with good reason. They're just trying to give you the news. So I don't know in terms of standalone audio content beyond the New York Times, we have our app that has all of our in-house content and then also some exclusive shows like the headlines like our culture shorts.

Sean Lukasik (19:12.686)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (19:37.717)
And I think that has proven to be pretty successful too. If for nothing else, just finding like a one-stop shop of all these shows and then if you really like the daily, you're probably going to like headlines. It's all for you. It's prepackaged. It gives you a playlist every day of what you're looking for. So I think that has been a really good utilization. I think that's probably just unique to the times. I'm not sure what other kind of platforms are able to do that.

But for me, I'm kind of more interested in the ways that current platforms, and not just necessarily news, but social media platforms integrate audio within their own existing space. Because I think that has a lot of future ahead of itself too.

Sean Lukasik (20:23.338)
Yeah, and I mean, I asked in an intentionally vague way, because I don't know even what that would look like. And I think the only example of an audio-focused social media platform was Clubhouse, and that came and went in the blink of an eye. But I wonder if there's something to learn from that.

Maddy (20:29.443)
Exactly. Yeah.

Maddy (20:43.625)
Totally. Yeah, I mean, Clubhouse, I was not cool enough to get invited to Clubhouse back in the day. And then once it was like not exclusive, nobody was on it, so it didn't matter. But I don't know if I am necessarily the audience for something like that. I think for me, and this is like Clubhouse specifically and just forums specifically in general, like if I wanted to get in a room with.

strangers and listen to them get on their soapbox, I'd probably just log on to Facebook and I don't want to do that to begin with. So I'm sure there's a way to do it in an interesting and well-executed way. But I think about the ways, not standalone audio, social media, but just the way that podcasting has inserted itself in TikTok, for example.

Sean Lukasik (21:33.924)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (21:37.973)
is podcast clips and I don't subscribe to any of them, but I am interested in them. And it's obviously they've got me because my algorithm keeps me coming back. Like as a as a Bills fan, it's really hard to start to like the Kelsey brothers, but they're everywhere. Like that's all that's all I see. That's all I hear is their podcast and they make some good points. And I'm like, damn, I really wish that this just didn't fall into my lap, but it did. And I think

Sean Lukasik (21:43.123)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (21:55.831)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (22:01.301)
Yeah.

Maddy (22:06.969)
There's a negative to that too, where it's like everything I've ever heard Joe Rogan say have hurt against my will. I did not seek that out. It's just coming to me. And again, hopefully you get the algorithm that weeds all that out. But so it's interesting how kind of what a symbiotic relationship that is with other forms of media. Because you have...

Sean Lukasik (22:15.223)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (22:31.089)
shows that can market itself on that platform. And then you have the platform who is getting a lot of engagement from that content that they have nothing to do with. Um, so I think that's probably the way forward for podcasting specifically in kind of the social landscape.

Sean Lukasik (22:45.326)
That's, yeah. So that's making me think of so many things. Now, first on the list, of course, is that we have to introduce Josh Allen and Taylor Swift. I think. Why?

Maddy (22:56.929)
Oh my God, I know. I mean, I like you thought we in Buffalo, we all thought it was a big deal that he started dating Hailey Steinfeld. And then what like shocker the chiefs one up us. Who would have guessed? Like it's so, it's frustrating. But yeah, I'm with you. I ship it.

Sean Lukasik (23:09.702)
It is very frustrating. I'm sure we play the Chiefs, I think, later this season. So if she's there, we'll just see what we can do. And all right, great. So we'll work on that plan after. But one of the things about Clubhouse that was interesting, and I'm sorry you didn't get that early invite, and it was not, like, it was not, I know, and you didn't miss anything. But I will say,

Maddy (23:17.693)
Yeah, I'm into it.

Maddy (23:30.533)
Me too, what the heck? I didn't know you back then, Sean, it would have been better.

Sean Lukasik (23:38.978)
The only thing that was kind of interesting was that, yeah, you're listening to most of the time like perfect strangers, sometimes somebody that you knew was hosting a session. In which case,

Maddy (23:51.081)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Sean Lukasik (23:55.758)
you could sort of raise your hand like you do on a zoom call. And they could bring you into the conversation to either ask a question or make a point the way that almost like live radio does in some ways. But the interface was more like social media. And I thought that was kind of interesting. And just I mean, just again, sort of thinking out loud and as you're talking about, you know, ways that audio kind of develops.

God, it would be great to have the opportunity to get called into the room by a podcast host that I love listening to or on a show where I could contribute in some sort of live fashion. You know, I could always go back and listen to a recording. But, but yeah, I think there's lots of fun ways to sort of think about how that evolves.

Maddy (24:47.197)
Definitely, but I think that comes back to you too, if you are on a platform where you really only know one person. Like I'm interested from your perspective, if we're trying to foster paisanos, what does that mean in terms of jumping into a conversation with strangers, especially in an age where, most people I know, I hate talking on the phone. If you're a stranger and you're calling me, I'm not picking up.

Sean Lukasik (25:07.022)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (25:14.122)
Yeah.

Maddy (25:14.853)
So it's like, why would I join this forum with you? And I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's an interesting question.

Sean Lukasik (25:22.302)
No, and that's a really good point. In a recent conversation for this podcast, Kate Lindsay, who's the writer for the embedded newsletter, talked about how more and more people are just lurking now on social media, even the comment section is going quiet on a lot of platforms. And so those parasocial relationships are just getting more polarized, I guess, and we're not using it socially the way that we

Maddy (25:51.719)
Right.

Sean Lukasik (25:52.417)
did it's really interesting

Maddy (25:54.681)
Yeah, I mean, again, I don't know how to fix that, but it is definitely a unique problem.

Sean Lukasik (26:00.184)
Well, for me, yeah, for me, this is the fix, honestly, like this podcast is a way to connect with people that I know.

Maddy (26:04.774)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (26:11.118)
peripherally or I know because I follow them on social media, but not really in a lot of other ways. And so it gives me an opportunity to have these conversations with really interesting people about all this stuff and you know, maybe it's a selfish endeavor, but anybody can create a podcast these days. So here we are.

Maddy (26:30.469)
No, I don't want to lump you into all that chunk. I think as long as you have a point of view, and again, you're somewhat qualified to talk about whatever it is you decided to talk about. I know people who have started health and wellness podcasts who have no background in any of that. They're just kind of telling people how to help.

Sean Lukasik (26:34.398)
No, I am. I'm lumping myself in. Absolutely.

Maddy (26:59.709)
what on quote their body, like that to me is dangerous. But I think, you know, it's not to say that I don't think that we should be having, you know, these conversations and I think talking about relationship building and the internet, which nobody can escape from, like it's a huge part of our lives and it's still, some, in some ways, is kind of talked about as like this new thing where it's like, it's been here, we've been living in it, it's already like affected us in a lot of ways.

Sean Lukasik (27:02.927)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (27:23.438)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (27:27.789)
Yeah.

Maddy (27:28.753)
Like how has that happened for you? So I don't blame you.

Sean Lukasik (27:30.622)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's why that's why I'm bringing in, you know, experts who are not me to talk about these things. I do think we're all affected by

Um, things without even really thinking about it, we are affected by podcasting and I really appreciate your perspective on how, and on ways that I am not thinking about and ways that, you know, um, friends and people who are listening don't think about either.

Maddy (28:00.701)
Totally, yeah. And I mean, it can go beyond just podcasting and just talking about audio in general. When I was thinking about different kind of like social integrations, weirdly enough, one of the ways or one of the tools that I think does that well is actually hinge. Like, I think you can answer any of the prompts instead of typing. You can send your voice through audio.

Sean Lukasik (28:19.429)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (28:27.445)
Yeah.

Maddy (28:28.077)
And especially in a digital landscape, I think there's only so many ways you can really get your personality clearly across. I think that's a really good one too. So again, it's not just podcasts, it's how do we kind of use voice and use sound and music and design and all of that stuff to kind of really enrich in the media that we're already consuming.

Sean Lukasik (28:51.03)
Um, yeah, I was, I was listening intently and I don't have a follow up question to that, but that's a really great point. I'm just letting that like sink in a little bit. Yeah. Um, well, it goes back to the point you made earlier about voice being an intimate. Um,

Maddy (29:00.417)
Oh, I'm glad. Yeah, let it, let it sicken. But like, yeah, it's all, it's all funny.

Sean Lukasik (29:11.79)
media or audio being an intimate medium and how can we utilize sort of the power of that hinge a great example of that for sure um what are you listening to these days what what's in your podcast feed

Maddy (29:12.219)
Exactly. Yeah.

Maddy (29:28.281)
You know, I was worried you were gonna ask that. I'm a slave to the machine, so any New York Times podcast is what I will promote.

Sean Lukasik (29:32.913)
Okay.

Sean Lukasik (29:36.594)
Well, and I have the app downloaded. It is a great app. You're absolutely right. Um, and it's generally spitting out all of the news magazine stuff. I love it.

Maddy (29:46.245)
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's again, it's just an example of like meeting people where they are. I think the Times is, it has so much institutional knowledge and research and background. So they're able to do that really well. So if you're not a subscriber and you don't have the app, you should.

Sean Lukasik (30:03.063)
Anything particularly interesting that you've worked on lately? Any episodes or particular shows that you really want to are excited are out in the world?

Maddy (30:16.205)
Yeah, I mean, if I'm thinking about the app specifically, there is a fun series that are just cultural shorts and they're like 10 minute episodes and you hear from reporters about, you know, what they're listening to, what they're reading, all that kind of stuff. But the ones I really like are the cooking ones. So we'll bring in people from New York Times Cooking who will share recipes. So there's a whole series that is, I think, entitled No Recipe Recipes where it's like, we're not measuring anything. It's just, here's what you need.

Sean Lukasik (30:45.816)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (30:46.045)
and we're gonna make a great dish. And that kind of involves SoundTube because I think we set up their producers with like recording kits at home to actually, you know, capture the sounds of their kitchen. So it kind of really puts you into that zone. And I'm just a big foodie anyway, so I like those a lot. I get a lot of cooking ideas from that show and that platform, so I'm very appreciative of that.

Sean Lukasik (31:02.954)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (31:09.966)
Cool. That one has not come across my feed yet. So I'm excited to listen to it. Yeah. The idea of sending those, those audio kits also, I mean, you know, this is a pretty low budget production so far. But we do almost exclusively remote conversations. And I often wonder, there's a podcast that I listened to with Esther Perel, where she's doing therapy sessions with people on the other

Maddy (31:13.67)
Yeah, dig in.

Maddy (31:28.859)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (31:39.8)
you know, any part of the world and they sound like they're in a professional studio and I have to imagine that they're being sent something like a kit just in terms of like getting into the weeds of the production piece. How does that work?

Maddy (31:52.273)
Sure. Yeah, I mean, so we here keep a pretty healthy stock of kits. And it just kind of depends on what you're trying to capture. Like if you're a producer going out in the field, you have a lot more gear and a lot more specialized gear than if you are just somebody who's recording one podcast at home. And then we send a return label and let's just ship it back to the office. But yeah, I think again, let me go back to...

the way things have evolved, just the creation of a USB microphone that you can plug into your computer is huge. And honestly, that has made my job a lot easier. That has made the job of post-production engineers a lot easier and has made it less intimidating, I think, too, for people to have these conversations.

Sean Lukasik (32:44.606)
Yeah, yeah, interestingly, I have the first, this is an audio medium, but I started with the cheap Yeti microphone that plugs in. Yeah, but honestly, like that, I think got so many people into that medium. And then, you know, I've been able to find some handheld recording equipment that's sort of like great for

Maddy (32:51.519)
Ah The Yeti- aw man

Maddy (33:11.305)
Totally.

Sean Lukasik (33:11.538)
interviews and honestly, we're getting to a point where the phone really does a pretty good quality like on the street type of interview.

Maddy (33:19.205)
The phone totally does. And you can even just buy, even if you wanted to go one step beyond your phone, little like lav mics. You know, I'm thinking about TikTok again too, and all of those series where it's just people like in Washington square park and they'll put the microphone, like a little lav mic in your face. And it's like, tell me what you do for a living and how much you make. So you can't really escape it anywhere. But yes, it's, it's incredibly accessible. There's a price point.

Sean Lukasik (33:26.236)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (33:47.281)
for everything depending on what you're trying to do. So it's funny audio, it's really taken over everywhere.

Sean Lukasik (33:55.242)
Well, and, um, you know, having been in journalism for my whole career, one of the things that gets harped on us from college is that even in a video production, audio is actually the most important element. It's one thing to see a grainy video. It's almost like your mind can kind of like fill in the gaps a little bit when things look fuzzy or blurry. But.

when you can't hear what someone is saying or all the nuances of what's happening in the atmosphere around them, that's when you really miss a lot.

Maddy (34:25.384)
Totally.

Maddy (34:30.757)
100%. And I think we'd be remiss to talk about how audio has evolved without mentioning video and what that's done for different platforms in terms of whether or not you have your whole episodes video or it's just clips online. But yes, I'm glad you said that because my philosophy, I think the philosophy of a lot of people on our team is that the audio comes first and video is always second.

Sean Lukasik (34:38.569)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (34:56.843)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (34:59.193)
And that becomes really hard if you're already an established show with established production workflows. Video is a whole different beast. And so I think it's important audio first, video second, and to not treat them as the same because they're not.

Sean Lukasik (35:08.631)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (35:20.247)
Mm hmm. One of my favorite documentaries is called I like killing flies. And it was about a man who had a tiny little restaurant on I believe the lower west side of Manhattan. It's still there. Although it's moved into much more refined sort of shared space. But

The guy is extremely interesting. He has a menu with like 150 items on it. And it's just like him and one other person in a kitchen, the size of my desk here. So it was a really interesting premise. The person who made the documentary was an NYU student and he used a lav mic exactly as you just described by like putting it in his face or near the pan just to get the audio. And there was something like really,

Maddy (35:52.595)
Nice.

Maddy (36:04.832)
Oh yeah.

Sean Lukasik (36:15.65)
beautiful about the fact that it caught every sound around it, whether they were in the car rolling restaurant equipment across Lexington Avenue, whatever they were doing, it caught everything. And you know, there's a time and a place for that, obviously, but that just made me think when you're talking about, you know, sticking a lav mic in someone's face.

Maddy (36:16.979)
Mm-hmm.

Maddy (36:37.713)
Sure, yeah. And I mean, even, I mean, they're, those are tiny little guys, but they are mighty. And in that way too, we, you can go back to how everything kind of lives in this like dichotomy. Like that can be dangerous because they're pretty, you could be recorded and not know it. Like they're very discreet, but they do pick up a lot of sound as if the person is aware that they're being recorded. So again, I think it all, it is all a double edged sword.

Sean Lukasik (36:41.15)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (37:06.242)
So by doing this job and thinking about the pros and cons and everything that we experience differently in life, the more that this progresses and the more that it becomes part of the internet that we're all using every second of the day, are there things that you've just become more in tuned with? Are there things that you've learned along the way or even just specific anecdotes that you think are relevant to sort of share in this conversation?

Maddy (37:37.881)
I mean, I don't know how much of that is specific to podcasting. I think, again, if we're just looking about the negative side of things, I think a lot of that has to come, like there's some sense of personal responsibility when it comes to that. So I think in that way, the good of podcasting and the way that it could really bring communities together. I used to work on a show.

where the listeners were incredibly devoted. They had a fan club, we would do live shows and like these people, they were getting together as if it was like a family reunion every year. And it's pretty touching. And so I think that's a common thread and you just find whatever it is like unique about your own human experience and try to find people who have the same kind of like niche interests as you.

And it can really, really bring you together in that way.

Sean Lukasik (38:42.634)
Just trying to think. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yes, thoroughly.

Maddy (38:42.961)
Did that answer your question? Okay.

Sean Lukasik (38:49.898)
Well, Maddie, I really appreciate your time and talking about this stuff. I am fascinated by it. I'm obsessed with, with the podcast world. Um, and, uh, I don't understand people who aren't, um, you know, fortunately by doing this little project, uh, my mom is like now interested in podcasts a little bit, so, you know, I, I changed one person, um, but, uh, I just, um, I really appreciate being able to have this conversation because not only am I learning a lot from it, but

Maddy (38:55.677)
Don't bud.

Maddy (39:07.689)
There we go.

Sean Lukasik (39:19.892)
think it's so fascinating to learn from somebody who, as we said at the top, like is often on the other side of it and thinks about the production piece and why this stuff is just so popular.

Maddy (39:32.793)
Yeah, absolutely. I had the similar experience where it took my dad a really long time to know what a podcast was. And now I think he listens to them on his own. They're mostly probably Bill's recaps. But I like to think he listens to some of the stuff I do too. So I'm with you.

Sean Lukasik (39:44.019)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (39:47.951)
Well, you can tell him that I had Matt Perino on this show early on and you know, he's a perfect so maybe he'll like that episode if not this one.

Maddy (39:51.877)
Absolutely, I will.

Maddy (39:56.773)
Yes, well, I would hope so.

Sean Lukasik (39:58.49)
I would hope so too. Maddie, thank you so much for doing this.

Maddy (40:02.525)
Thank you, Sean, and thank you for letting me talk on a microphone, because it's nice to be on the other side for once. Thank you.

Sean Lukasik (40:07.167)
a very high quality microphone.