The Paesanos Podcast

Sean Lukasik (00:01.762)
So Kate Lindsay, I'm really excited to have you on the Paesanos Podcast. Thank you for doing this.

Kate Lindsay (00:05.695)
Thank you so much for having me.

Absolutely. So I have been reading your embedded newsletter now for quite some time and I love your writing and this podcast is sort of about how real life and internet culture come together. And you wrote this article recently that I wanted to start with about influencers in the wild.

Sean Lukasik (00:27.75)
And how this account that makes fun of people making content for the internet is thriving, has millions of followers, is very snarky and corny and outdated. And of course, is hypocritical in the sense that we all follow influencers. There are millions, if not billions of people following the people who create this content. We just don't like seeing it.

being created. Can you talk about where the idea for that article came from and maybe start by just kind of giving us your synopsis?

Kate Lindsay (01:01.395)
Yeah, so I, in addition to writing my newsletter, I freelance for a few places. I love this truck pass, of course. Yeah, so I freelance for a few places, one of them being Vulture. And Vulture, I did an interview with this creator named Sabrina, but I think most people who are familiar with her would know her as Tube Girl, which is she makes these videos on the Tube or the London Underground.

Sean Lukasik (01:10.188)
Obviously.

Kate Lindsay (01:31.343)
Uh, and, and they're so basically she dances to songs without kind of a care in the world that she's in a public place in a car, just kind of using the tube as her runway. And people really liked it for that reason where they were like, what, where do you get your confidence? Um, how, how do you just sort of ignore that there are these people they're watching you. And so when I was writing sort of the introduction to that interview, I sort of was referencing that shame that people have when.

they wanna make content in public, that there's still like a, there's a lot of anxiety around it. And I sort of mentioned offhand, it's fueled by accounts like influencers in the wild, which I hadn't looked at in like truly years, but I wanted to link to them in the piece. So I was like, oh, let me find them. I linked. And that was when I realized like, oh, this account is still going. Like this didn't trickle off. It still has millions of followers. They're posting like almost every day. And what was so,

I think in general, the work of creators has always been devalued from the get-go incorrectly. So it's not like its original premise was fine, but it made even less sense now because it was called influencers in the wild, but the people that appear on the account are not at least like, they're not influencers in the sense that I recognize any of them or that anyone would recognize any of them. No one ever in the comments is like, oh, that's so-and-so because...

Sean Lukasik (02:35.703)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (02:53.528)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (02:58.027)
the people who make this content are no longer just influencers or like a small group. It's kind of everyone. The internet and how we use social media has really moved towards, we all have adopted the same posting patterns and, and dialect even of the creators who kind of pioneered this. And so when I was looking at it, I was like, well, one, this,

Sean Lukasik (03:14.431)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (03:18.343)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (03:23.999)
This isn't punching, I don't know who was ever punching up, but it's certainly not punching up anymore because these are regular people who were just trying to, you know, they're not doing anything, they're taking pictures of themselves. And there's some of this implicit thing that like the fact that they want a picture of themselves taken somewhere that's pretty makes them sort of morally, I don't know, vapid or the, yeah. The message of all of it is like, look at these people who think they're so hot and they're doing it and...

Sean Lukasik (03:28.524)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (03:52.139)
that's not the appropriate way to appreciate a moment because a lot of them are at really beautiful places and they want a picture of themselves with the beautiful thing and people, you know, and all the comments are just like really tearing into these people. And I thought that was, it was the first time it occurred, well, one, so there was the one sort of aspect of these aren't influences anymore, this is all of us, but it felt additionally ironic for people in the comments to be sort of making fun of this stuff when sort of the

Sean Lukasik (04:00.171)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (04:20.819)
the fact that they are commenting on Instagram meant they were scrolling Instagram, which meant they were consuming, like every post surrounding this was someone who had to do that exact same thing, like get a picture of themselves taken or take a selfie. That when they saw it from that perspective, I assume they had less contempt for it. And so it was like, that's really interesting that seeing how it gets made still really evokes this frustration or disgust from us. And I-

You know, not as an influencer in the wild level, but I would similarly, like, you know, especially I live in New York City, I see people taking pictures of themselves vlogging all the time and there is this knee jerk, like, wow, like, I don't know. And I, and so I was like, I want to, I want to, um, try to unpack why that is still so weird to see when consuming that stuff is so normal. And it's not a way we react like in New York city. When I see a movie set, when I see a movie set, I'm like, Ooh, who is it? Um, but still for some reason. That, that, that hasn't.

Sean Lukasik (05:15.084)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (05:20.927)
carried on over to influencers, which I would argue now are just as prominent of a form of entertainment.

Sean Lukasik (05:27.018)
Well, and the creator of the influencers in the wild Instagram account has been on Shark Tank recently because now he has a board game influencers in the wild board game. So just the layers of hypocrisy and irony just get like thicker and thicker. It's kind of crazy. And of course, now he's becoming his own recognizable figure. And it's like,

Kate Lindsay (05:33.783)
Oh my god.

Kate Lindsay (05:40.573)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (05:49.459)
That was something too that I didn't get into in the piece, because I couldn't, like I try to keep my newsletter posts like not nothing too lengthy. And so I didn't dive into it as much as I would have were a larger piece, but it's like, when you are an account with millions of followers, like even if you're not doing this thing that you're villainizing, you are, like you have an audience, you're catering to them. I couldn't, in my initial search, I didn't go far enough to like find them, but I'm sure they've...

They have like a partnerships email, which means I'm certain they've done brand deals, like all this stuff that they would be making fun of other people doing. And now I actually didn't know about the board game, which is like, already the account was dated and then coming out with a board game, it's like, what is this? Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (06:22.24)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (06:31.506)
I know they're going backwards. Well, now, you do mention in the piece, and just going to read a sentence in here, while shaming influencers for their work was already a questionable premise, the account has aged poorly, it's corny dated, and has a specific vendetta against women and gay men. Of course, the creator of the account is a straight white man. And so you know, it brings that point home.

Kate Lindsay (06:55.838)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (07:00.974)
How much of that is sort of like a microcosm of the internet experience as a whole for women, for marginalized communities? Like the experience of just simply using posting to commenting on the internet is so different for women, for gay men, for minorities, than it is for straight white men who, of course, create the account that we're talking about here.

Kate Lindsay (07:14.943)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (07:28.135)
Do you experience the same thing as do you feel like that is a microcosm of just sort of the internet as a whole?

Kate Lindsay (07:37.144)
I think it's all about language and the words that are used to describe what different people are doing. Because I think social media is very feminine and I do think that sort of the things, you know, I'm also coming from a very female focused experience of growing up on the internet, but so a lot of the figures I saw who pioneered like, like all the YouTubers I followed were women because they were doing like hauls and makeup.

Sean Lukasik (07:54.857)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (08:03.487)
but also, you know, like I got into YouTube through Harry Potter, so I was like watching all these people talk about Harry Potter. Like, it was very, I don't, I, something, the way that men use social media is something I've been thinking about a lot because I feel like men don't feel like they can participate in the same way because it's so feminine coded in terms of like sharing your outfit in the morning or posting the meal you're eating.

Sean Lukasik (08:21.987)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (08:32.54)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (08:33.611)
Those are very gender neutral activities, but you really don't see men posting like that. And I think because there is this kind of assumption that is sort of a feminine thing to do. But I also think there's this element of, there are women and men doing the same thing on the internet, but they, what they're doing, they get different titles because of their gender. Like I think men are more like.

a woman's an influencer, a man is like an entrepreneur or like a thought leader type of thing. So I think it comes down to things like that. And then I also think the internet has been a great tool for people who are otherwise, you know, like when it comes to sort of more marginalized communities in terms of things like race or sexual orientation, I do think the internet provided the space where these very by nature,

Sean Lukasik (09:02.262)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (09:27.247)
isolated and spoken over groups could connect and find common ground. And so I think that also is, I think, a big part of the internet. Like I'm just thinking about, I grew up on Tumblr and that's where I learned like everything. That's where I learned about feminism. That's where I learned about queer issues. That's where like I first started to be confronted with discussions.

about race because in my high school in Pennsylvania, that was not happening. None of those things were being talked about and it was all happening online. So it's very vast and I think that those are the things that make the internet great. But I think as it's become more mainstream, it comes down to labels. And I still think a lot of that activity when it's done by

Sean Lukasik (09:54.486)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (10:18.367)
people who are queer or women, it's kind of seen as like a fun hobby. And when this even just the branding of like male creators can really, they use words that exist already, like entrepreneur, where it's sort of, I think these other communities get given the newer words like influencer, which a lot of creators really don't, they're like, don't call me that even though, cause like it's a dirty word.

Sean Lukasik (10:22.493)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (10:32.299)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (10:43.934)
Yeah, yeah. No, and I completely agree. And I think for people who aren't familiar with your sub stack newsletter embedded, I highly recommend subscribing to that. Because just as you're talking, you're dropping all of these like really interesting anecdotes, where you use the newsletter to write a little bit about each one almost every day for four or five times a week. And one of the things you just said that I can't just

go past is the idea that social media is feminine. And you elaborated on that a little bit. But can you can you talk a little bit more about that? Have you written about that in the past? I love that idea. And I think it just brings home so many experiences that I've had. And I think other people have had on social media when you're talking about like,

Kate Lindsay (11:18.999)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (11:25.973)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (11:40.662)
how to post, what to say, what to call yourself, you know, it's, I can totally see how it's a different experience for men and women.

Kate Lindsay (11:43.699)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (11:49.747)
Yeah, so I think that came from honestly seeing a tweet from someone who actually deleted it within seconds, so I'm not going to out them. But they were kind of responding to a tweet that was kind of talking about why aren't men… why don't we see this stuff from men? And it was a man who had tweeted the response being like essentially paraphrasing because it got deleted so quickly, but when we post like that it gets made fun of or it's not seen as legitimate.

And I thought that was so interesting because I also write a lot for GQ because Nick, who is my editor at Embedded, is also the site director at GQ. And so sometimes I'll do some stuff for them. And so it's made me, I grew up in women's media, or not grew up, my career grew up. I grew up with my career in women's media exclusively. Like I, not until Nick did I ever have like a male boss. And so what I've thought, I've just been thinking about masculinity in a very.

Sean Lukasik (12:32.599)
Mm-hmm.

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Kate Lindsay (12:46.607)
new way and in a way that I hope is positive because I think having been in women's media for so long, it's not that men are villainized, but it was very siloed. And I think kind of my interest in writing for GQ has been about this masculine experience that I think is not represented. Like when you think of outlets for men on social media, they're very one note. It's like Barstool.

Sean Lukasik (12:47.946)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (13:16.255)
or just like a very specific type of branding that doesn't represent all like the men in my life. And actually one of the early posts for embedded was about this, we called it the gentle guy internet where it was whatever my boyfriend, whenever we're like, you know, we're having like laptop time before we go to sleep, which actually I try not to do anymore. I think it's bad to look at his laptop before bed, but this is earlier. I would look over and just see some of the

Sean Lukasik (13:16.274)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (13:23.799)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (13:38.722)
Ha ha ha!

Kate Lindsay (13:44.171)
weird things he was doing that I, you know, he'd be looking at like hour long vlogs from guys who have like a GoPro on their head and they're like camping in the wild and they're just like, there's like not any flashy editing. It's like one long take of them like making dinner camping or a lot of it's like, I think it's called like stealth camping or something where they're like trying to camp in places that you're not supposed to and see if they can get away with it.

Sean Lukasik (13:56.376)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (14:12.45)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (14:13.387)
But it was all like very wholesome and gentle, but still masculine. And I was like, this is so interesting to me because it's just not something that you see. Like this creator who he also follows, who I think is just like so nice is this guy. I think he has like, he reviews potato chips and that's it. Like he does reviews potato chips. And one of the key things is like, he puts the potato chips in a sandwich and.

reviews it based on that, like are they good in a sandwich? So it's just a little things like that, that I was having this discussion last night. Like I love when people use the internet for an intrinsic reason, whereas like they just genuinely love something like reviewing potato chips and they're not really interested in the, getting like tons of feedback about it. And so I don't know, so basically seeing that and then there was a really good sort of men's publication.

Sean Lukasik (14:42.189)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (15:08.119)
called Mel that had a few stops and starts, but I believe is not a going concern anymore. But one of the things that was a shame about it going was I felt like that was the closest to kind of being representative of not all masculinity, but certain type of masculinity that you don't see online. Because I think because online is so feminine, you get either, you get like the bar stool stuff or everything else and that kind of gets categorized as female.

And so I genuinely was like, I want there to be, I'm always interested in these sort of pockets of the internet that aren't talked about. And this felt like a huge gap. And I know I'm like rambling about this, but it affects like so much because I, this is something I wrote recently because like my boyfriend and I have been together for five years now and we had started talking about the future and we kind of had these different ideas of what like the next steps of life would look like. Like to me, I'm like, oh, like,

Sean Lukasik (15:50.526)
No. Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (16:06.739)
maybe a house and we renovate the house and then like kids and all this stuff. And when I saw that, when I pictured that, I pictured a lot of very exciting things. And when he pictured it, he's picturing like the slow descent into just being boring. And I think for me, I was like, I wonder if the discrepancy there is like, since I was a teenager, I followed creators who were a little bit older than me on YouTube and stuff. And so I've watched these female creators

Sean Lukasik (16:21.251)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (16:30.434)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (16:37.075)
enter that next stage of life and document it. And I don't want to say romanticize because that makes it sound like it's not truthful, but they just, they posted kind of that makes them, basically made me excited where I'm like, oh, I can see what's coming. I have this model thing to aspire to. And it's because I follow these creators. And I was like, and he doesn't have that because that doesn't really exist for him. And that's like a huge thing that for men, like men don't really have a model

Sean Lukasik (16:47.243)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (17:07.695)
of life that can be exciting when they get past a certain age in a way that because of the advent of internet culture, it feels like women have really taken on themselves to do. And so it's a really broad answer, but I just think there's so many ways where social media is feminine and that's great. It's great that women have found this space to really express themselves, but I think there's also a huge conversation about...

Sean Lukasik (17:20.62)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (17:37.563)
masculinity right now, especially in the US. And I, it would be great to, um, see more of at least the, I don't know, the, the more leveled kind of regular masculinity that is out there, but that you just don't, don't see online and it's not all like, I don't want to keep naming barstool, but you know, the barstool-esque places where it's like, it's one, it's one way or nothing.

Sean Lukasik (17:51.86)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (18:03.134)
Yeah. Well, I mean, I just had this conversation recently with a friend of mine, we're both golf nerds of the history of the sport, the beauty of the clubs themselves, the architecture of the golf courses, we both listen a lot to the same golf podcast. And my friend was just lamenting about how these guys who there are two guys just a little older than me.

Kate Lindsay (18:10.272)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (18:21.791)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (18:32.642)
who do the podcast, I'll talk about the sport from the same aspect kind of like really nerdy know the history know everything about it in really beautiful way. But they always start the podcast by saying something like, I'm a little bit hungover, this will be a short one today or God, the kids are driving me crazy today. Like I got to get out and help the wife this will this is going to be a shorter podcast today. And it's like, and then it never is, you know, like,

Kate Lindsay (18:52.258)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (18:59.809)
Nyah-yah!

Sean Lukasik (19:00.714)
It's never short. They talk about all this stuff. And it's my friend was saying like, how annoying it is that they start every podcast like that. And I never thought about how like, I was just thinking like, Oh, well, that's just like a regular human thing. Like, that's a little bit like, ingratiating almost. But it's really interesting to think about how that that's actually just coded in the language of older men whose experience is supposed to

Kate Lindsay (19:08.59)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (19:19.7)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (19:26.005)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (19:29.666)
degrade is supposed to get more boring later in life. And God, now you've really got me thinking about

Kate Lindsay (19:31.136)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (19:36.311)
No, it's, yeah, it's wild because like, I also kind of see it like my parents have gotten into YouTube, which is kind of wild because that's like how I started on the internet. And just seeing like the stuff that my dad watches and also like other friends of theirs I've spoken to, how because of this void of content for men.

how susceptible they are to the kind of radicalization that gets talked about in turn. Because certain videos, my dad like knows the name like Jordan Peterson, so knows not to click on those videos, but that has started getting recommended to him. And it's like, well, I can understand why if you don't resonate with one of the very limited versions of masculinity that are represented on the internet, you could turn to…

Sean Lukasik (20:11.51)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (20:20.241)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (20:35.135)
this version. And then there's like the Andrew Tate of it all. And I just, yeah, I don't, obviously there's lots more stuff at play, but I do think like the lack of, the lack of, if more, if men felt more comfortable using social media without sort of the fear of it being feminine coded, I wonder if it would dilute how susceptible young men seem to be to going down like a darker path. I don't know, that might be really simplified, but it's just, it's something

Sean Lukasik (20:36.552)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (21:05.423)
me that with such limited options available we're seeing men fall kind of into a darker side of things especially when YouTube is like putting in front of them. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (21:15.37)
Yeah, well, and instead of just grappling with what is uncomfortable and moving forward with it anyways, I know that that's hard to do. And to your point, that's much oversimplified. But yeah, we're not trained that way. So interesting. So going back to the article you wrote about influencers in the wild, the way that it ended was really interesting to me. And the

Kate Lindsay (21:19.025)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (21:27.675)
Yeah!

Kate Lindsay (21:33.985)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (21:39.382)
Paisano's podcast is called Paisano's podcast because of a Ted Talk that I did 10 years ago about labeling the difference between the people you meet online and the people that you meet in real life. And I just use the label of a Paisano to sort of talk about people in real life that you get these actual natural health benefits by being close to, by having community with. And at the end of the article, you...

Kate Lindsay (21:44.413)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (21:49.1)
Mmm.

Kate Lindsay (22:01.012)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (22:05.286)
say that the relationships that we build online with peers or with our favorite content creators are no less legitimate than and you're comparing that to you know the people that we meet in real life. Now I did that TED talk 10 years ago and the entire landscape of the internet has changed and I know that it is possible to create these relationships that really are legitimate and you know to borrow your word and so

Kate Lindsay (22:16.372)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (22:23.19)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (22:29.835)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (22:33.982)
I just wanted to ask about that and it was just something, you know, in one sentence, but if you could talk a little bit about the relationships that you've built online, either with your peers, your favorite creators, um, and how maybe that's evolved over the years.

Kate Lindsay (22:42.196)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (22:48.255)
Yeah, so yeah, I'll start with like peers because like I said, I grew up on Tumblr and so I had a lot of Tumblr specific friends and what was really helpful about that was it was kind of like a neutral space to talk about problems that I was having without, I mean I'm like describing what is valuable about a therapist, but I was a teenager, so I was having the courage to me. But like, you know, like…

Sean Lukasik (23:13.56)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (23:16.487)
If I was dealing with friendship issues or like relationship issues, I went to a school that was not like small, but small enough that there, you know, it's high schoolers. So it's just like none of that information is private or trusted even among friends. And also it was during a time of, you know, that's when you're exploring identity. And I think it can feel very vulnerable to explore identity in front of people who've known you for a while.

I don't know. So that's how the internet was really helpful for me, was I could just like explore different parts of myself in front of an audience that didn't already have a preconceived idea of who I was, and also people who I could just talk to about what was happening with like a breakup or something, and it would never get back to the people that the story was about because these were sort of independent people. But we never met up. There are people who met up, but I knew from the beginning my parents would have...

Sean Lukasik (23:43.563)
Mm.

Sean Lukasik (24:02.449)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (24:10.319)
never let me met up with anyone from the internet, so I didn't even try. And their people, it's funny that they still like linger in the sense that as technology progressed, we would like friend each other on Facebook and then Instagram and Twitter, and they're still there. I'll see the pop up and I'll see they're doing great. We don't really talk anymore, but it's this weird sort of lingering thing. And then moving to New York and being in media, so much of media, if for like better or worse, is on Twitter. And so even like last night, I went to an event that Substack did.

Sean Lukasik (24:13.584)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (24:34.926)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (24:39.667)
And so I guess this is more subsext focus, but it was a lot of people who I knew because of their avatars or I knew their names, but I didn't know them, but I also did know them because I've read all their thoughts. And there were these weird moments of introduction and being like, it's so weird to meet someone who you already know, if that makes sense. It's like, yeah. And you don't fall into a rhythm immediately because it's like.

Sean Lukasik (24:45.614)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (24:59.51)
Yes, totally. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (25:07.475)
Like to me, it's still so wild because a newsletter is like a very, for the reader, a private experience. It's going into their inbox and it's between them and the inbox. So like I don't get much confirmation, but I don't see really in a meaningful way how many people are reading the newsletter. I mean, I can see a number, but just in terms of like, it's...

When I meet people in real life who say they read it, it always is so hard for my brain to comprehend because what I feel like I'm doing is sending something that goes out into a void. And then I don't really see that people read it in like a way, like with my own eyes. And so it's so, it's so bizarre. It's like that was happening last night. And it's just like, that's so, I don't know if I'll ever be able to like.

Sean Lukasik (25:45.614)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (26:01.907)
understand it probably. But like, you know, so it's all this stuff where it's like, I'm like, okay, you now know a lot about me because I just like put a lot of stuff in there. I don't know anything about you. Or I do know these things about you, but it's like, it feels more intimate to bring them up in person. Or sometimes we're like rehashing stuff that I know the answer to because I've read it, but because we're talking in real life, I don't want to be like, yeah, I know or whatever. But like, those are the, you know, through Substack through Twitter, I've met people that went on to become like my very close friends.

Sean Lukasik (26:17.314)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (26:29.335)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (26:30.079)
I've like met past like partners on these things like they do there's weirdness, but they do translate And so it's not it's certainly not a one-to-one replacement at all But it's an interest. It's a real relationship that I do think is made more I Think if they're online only that serves up purpose But then to bring them into real life

is like another, to me, I will still always feel like that's more meaningful, but it's not to say that people who you only talk to online aren't. It's just two different roles. But then in terms of like the relationship that's built with a creator, it's something that like, because parasocial relationship became like such a buzzword these past few years. And I think that's such a real thing.

Sean Lukasik (27:01.382)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (27:26.731)
the friendship or the relationship people feel they have with a person they follow isn't real because it's slightly different than like an actor who you love, who does all these roles because they're playing characters, but sort of a person you really love online is sharing a lot of themselves with you. And maybe you've built a relationship with them either just from...

Sean Lukasik (27:39.72)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (27:55.039)
the ways that you relate to them, even if they're not like you never spoken directly or maybe you have like they can respond to you in ways that typical celebrities don't. But then sort of when I wrote about this somewhat recently was when Hank Green, who's one of the vlog brothers was diagnosed with cancer, which he is thankfully, I believe in remission for now. He's definitely sort of on a positive path, but everyone was in a really weird.

Sean Lukasik (28:11.682)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (28:20.415)
all the fans of his, like I followed him since I was a tween and I'm not like a dedicated person, necessarily like I'd dip in and out of the videos, but I still feel like that is a long relationship I've had with this person who does not know who I am and who then in this moment, I don't know how to help. Because this was when he announced it, it was scary. This is someone like, you know, if someone, if your friend had done this, you'd be like, okay, I'm going to cook for you. I'm going to send you movies and we do all this stuff. And like in his video, he specifically was like,

Sean Lukasik (28:31.214)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (28:46.36)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (28:51.371)
Because he well to me I'm one person and he's one person to him He's one person and then there's millions of people who now are like what can we do and like that's you're already dealing with A health scare like that's very overwhelming. He kind of very I think helpfully acknowledged that and was like here's He knew people were gonna want to do something But he was like I have people in my life who are helping like you do not need to like I Don't know what I don't think anyone even knew but like you don't need to come up with what you need to do he's like all I want you to do is

Sean Lukasik (28:59.054)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (29:13.259)
Mm.

Kate Lindsay (29:21.203)
recommend dumb movies to me. And everyone in the comments was like, all right, here's a dumb movie, here's a dumb movie. And it was good because it gave people something to do. But when I was writing about it, I was looking at the fan base is called Nerdfighters. And I was just looking at them in the Reddit talking about it. And they all were just like, this is so weird. This is someone who I've known for like over half my life. And this is such a significant thing they're going through. And I don't know what to do. And it's like, so that's a real, because it's a real relationship. And they're.

Sean Lukasik (29:23.201)
Okay.

Kate Lindsay (29:48.899)
is nothing really to be done. And I think that's hard to swallow when you care about someone. But this is like a specific instance where it's like caring about them. And this moment would be respecting his wishes to be like, I don't know, not bombarding him. And so it's weird. It is parasocial, but I don't think parasocial needs to always be negative because I don't think anyone who I saw in this instance was being inappropriate. Everyone was very cognizant that they wanted to do the right.

Sean Lukasik (30:11.502)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (30:17.951)
thing and no one really knew what it was.

Sean Lukasik (30:19.943)
Well, and it's a little reminiscent almost of online dating as well because that is one to one, you know, that is where you know, one person ideally is sharing something about themselves, the other person. And you get these sort of like, topics you get these like thought out and curated.

Kate Lindsay (30:23.036)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (30:34.924)
Hmm.

Sean Lukasik (30:38.766)
conversations. But then when you meet that person, even though you have the background of the information, like talking about it at the substack event last night, you have the background, you feel like you know, think but like when it's been combined with personality and everything else that goes with being with someone in person, that's when you really get to

Kate Lindsay (30:44.832)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (30:59.164)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (31:02.286)
know somebody, you can say, Oh, we both love hiking, or we both love reading this book or something. But, but the way that you interact the way that you talk about it, and the way that you're talking about these like parasocial relationships, make me think of that as well, even though it's not, you know, one to a million.

Kate Lindsay (31:03.82)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (31:22.771)
Right, no, you need to know, like, there's so many other things, which is why I'm like, I don't, something online could ever replace this stuff where you're like, is the person late? Like, how do they treat waiters? Like, all this stuff of like, that are actually like very important to a relationship that you just have no idea, I mean, I hate to bring this up because it is a little different and also cheesy, but I've been watching Love is Blind and it's like a similar kind of thing. Yeah, or when they meet in person, it's like, they could have had this really meaningful relationship.

Sean Lukasik (31:33.105)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (31:43.934)
Me too. Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (31:51.955)
And then when they're together, it's a dud. And there's, and it is, it's like confounding to be like, wait, why can't this translate? And I just think, cause there's just so much more to a person. And when you, I have had the experience of, like I said, I met like a past partner online. And when we finally met up, oh my God, I was like, I can't even look you in the eye. I'm so like self-conscious. Cause now I have like a body and then so do you. And it's so weird. Yeah. And I don't, I don't know.

Sean Lukasik (32:10.114)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, right.

Kate Lindsay (32:20.819)
And I wonder if that weirdness is what is contributing to like seeing people film content influencers in the wild kind of stuff. But it's like, I don't know, like online and offline worlds are the most integrated they've ever been. I don't know what it will look like if we, like I don't know, will we get to a spot where there won't be that awkwardness anymore? Like I do, I don't know. I kind of.

Sean Lukasik (32:28.171)
Alright.

Sean Lukasik (32:45.495)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (32:46.787)
I don't know, this sounds like boomery, but I kind of hope not. Like I kind of hope it doesn't become so synonymous that... I don't like, I think there's things that are special in both of them because they are kind of exclusive to each other. And I just wonder what will be lost if we completely blur them. But also like, I'm sure if we do, I can hear myself in 50 years being like,

Sean Lukasik (32:50.306)
I'm going to go to bed.

Sean Lukasik (33:03.367)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (33:14.231)
and everyone being like, all right, like, and I don't want to be that, yeah. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (33:16.25)
Right, or five, five years maybe also. But you know, and I think like, I mentioned this to you in sort of a topic ahead of time, but related to this article about influencers is the idea that Gen Z sometimes called zoomers because of their boomer like behavior, and the blending of real world and internet world happens.

Kate Lindsay (33:32.66)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (33:37.265)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (33:41.515)
Hmm.

Sean Lukasik (33:44.73)
that generation is much more comfortable with blurring those lines. And there's the example of like, Gen Z going to concerts and recording the whole thing or not even facing the stage because they want to get themselves in the shot with the artist. And people, especially of other generations get really annoyed by that behavior. Because

Kate Lindsay (33:49.483)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (34:07.912)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (34:10.034)
And even I think within Gen Z, you know, there's this faction that would say, go to the concert, enjoy the music, drink a beer smell what it's like, you know, here, and other people, you know, that are like, did you even go if you don't share it on social media? And I know there are other examples of like zoom or like behavior. But do you think that's the generation that is just most comfortable with blending these things because of how they grew up?

Kate Lindsay (34:19.211)
Hmm.

Kate Lindsay (34:26.019)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (34:32.158)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (34:38.647)
Yeah, I was thinking about this when sort of I was thinking about what we're gonna talk about and I was trying to figure out like what is the common thread between boomers and gen z that this comparison happens because I also I've like seen this and read about it and I think it's like and it's in I don't want to I'm not like a boomer expert um but I think my guess would be that it's like they both have an individualism but for totally different reasons like I think there's a very

Sean Lukasik (34:58.2)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (35:08.167)
sort of when I see it talked about with Gen Z, like, I mean, I was like, I'm sympathetic because I think for a lot of them had very formative years spent entirely online. And then they've emerged from that and they're going to have some hangups from it. You know, like when I saw the Barbie movie and like I said, I feel like I'm that person. There's like, but like the, it was kind of a nightmare in the theater because it was just this.

Sean Lukasik (35:20.13)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (35:35.371)
misunderstanding that they were around other people. Like, and that this was not, like, it seemed like they were there having a singular, it was them watching the movie and we were there, but like, it was their experience. And so like, I just saw these girls behind me were just like talking and laughing, like they were in a living room. And it was so wild to me, but I think it's because, like,

Sean Lukasik (36:00.612)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (36:05.459)
their, how they experience the world was very individual, and for, for like three years. And I think a lot of them, during the years when they would start to be doing these more public things, they were online, like, you know, when they were old enough to start driving to movie theaters, well, movie theaters were closed, and concerts were not allowed. It's another, going to these things after a few years of

Sean Lukasik (36:26.08)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (36:33.575)
their lens being kind of disordered of like what life is, which is I think for that, like, you know, they understandably, I think prioritize, like what you said, like posting the experience online as sort of an away of like, like asserting their existence. And I because I've run into this feeling too, and I specifically stopped.

Sean Lukasik (36:48.58)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (36:56.063)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (37:01.227)
Like I'll still post the occasional Instagram story here or there if like my cats are doing something cute or I have like a article to talk about. But I sort of, I recognize that I started to feel like nothing in my day mattered if it wasn't shared. And to that point, like if I couldn't get it to look good for the internet, it would, I would see that as a reflection on the quality of that IRL experience, which I didn't like. Like that I would be like, oh, this.

Sean Lukasik (37:26.818)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (37:30.483)
I would literally feel like the concert wasn't as good as it could have been because I didn't get a picture that I liked. And I didn't like that was happening and I didn't like that I seemed to have completely devalued what you were saying, just the experience of being there. And I wanted to confront why it felt so anxiety inducing that I would do these things and no one would know about them. Why was it so important for me to be able to know about them? And I think it was just from...

Sean Lukasik (37:36.34)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (37:54.446)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (37:59.951)
much smaller amount, but that I grew up on the internet, I kind of, all the mechanisms of it were teaching me that it mattered. And I was like, oh, I don't like this. And I pulled away. But I think that is a hundred times more, they're being taught that, that this, that is what matters even way more intensely than I was. And so I think, so I think it's a, when you are viewing your life through this lens of like,

Sean Lukasik (38:19.841)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (38:28.783)
narrative almost. I just think it is understandable to see yourself as the most important person in a room if you are running a, if your life is kind of becoming a one woman social media show kind of thing. And yeah, yeah.

Sean Lukasik (38:43.938)
Sure. Well, and, well, I know, and I, it's just, I also wanted to ask about and not, not to like bring up too many articles, I cannot recommend embedded enough. Like these things like sit in my head for a while. Um, when you're looking at the analytics, at least a hundred or more of the clicks are just me. Uh, but, um, you talk about lurking and I just, there are so many inroads into that.

Kate Lindsay (38:52.903)
No, no, right. Oh my gosh.

Kate Lindsay (39:01.871)
Hahaha!

Kate Lindsay (39:06.859)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (39:10.571)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (39:10.722)
I know there was the changing social media landscape when TikTok came out and everyone was trying to respond to it and everything. But the fact of the matter remains that a lot fewer people are commenting and engaging with content and more just watching it being presented to them, like they're in a movie theater with their own phone. And like, does that do you think contribute to?

Kate Lindsay (39:23.283)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (39:29.399)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (39:38.806)
that notion that you are putting on a performance or that we are putting on a performance that really needs to be curated and thought out and also can cause a bunch of anxiety if we don't do it right.

Kate Lindsay (39:43.296)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (39:51.359)
Yeah, there was just like the, the lurker piece was kind of inspired by a few different things, but I think the first, the first sort of nugget of it was a TikTok that someone made where they were like, I think I figured out why I don't enjoy Instagram anymore. And it's because when I post, I just see all these people who watch my stories and none of them have interacted with it at all. And it's not that those, and so it was like, it's not a, what this person was lamenting was that it's not a relationship anymore. Like they're, they're not,

Sean Lukasik (40:04.439)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (40:10.216)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (40:22.715)
you're just a billboard, people are looking at you and they're not saying anything. And I think a lot of that is because the way that social media has, I mean, Instagram has changed so much in terms of what it, Instagram, whenever it has a new thing, it will, so first it introduces you to this concept of likes, and you get kind of addicted to the likes and the engagement. And then once everyone has gotten addicted to that, they then kind of weaponize that feature.

Sean Lukasik (40:44.215)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (40:51.903)
to get you to do whatever their new thing is. And so like they introduced Reels and then from that moment on, they want people to use Reels. Everyone kind of thought they were a joke. And so what they did, rather than like incentivizing people with positive reinforcement to start using Reels, they were like, okay, well, if you don't post a video, we're not gonna show that post to your friends and you're not gonna get those likes that you are like now conditioned to like need like water. And so then they kind of...

Sean Lukasik (41:10.752)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (41:18.023)
Right, right.

Kate Lindsay (41:21.331)
So basically through different moves like that, they've completely deprioritized commenting on someone's post or like reaching out to them or having a discussion because those things don't get you the likes that you want. Like responding to someone's story being like, oh, good job, or this looks cool, is not doing anything. It's private. It like all the things that now we've been conditioned to be motivated by. But basically this is all happened because all these companies sort of saw TikTok, wanted to be TikTok.

Sean Lukasik (41:34.534)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (41:51.871)
focus on discovery rather than the reason people joined social media, which was to talk to each other. But then also like my thing is I do think if they were like, okay, never if Instagram was like, never mind. We're not no more algorithm chronological feed. Scrapping everything. We're doing the same app again. I don't think as much as I'm like, oh, is this Instagram's fault? I also think we as users would be like, well, this is boring because we would all those things that we were kind of raised to

Sean Lukasik (41:55.684)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (42:14.382)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Kate Lindsay (42:21.523)
or conditioned to sort of need would be gone. And so I think that's what's so hard and why when everyone's like, oh, why like everyone wants old social media, they want blogs back or they want all these things, but when those things are actually introduced, they kind of fail because like, it's more just like, it's like, you did this to me, Instagram, and now I can't go back. And so, and so yeah, and now,

Sean Lukasik (42:23.938)
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (42:44.503)
Yes.

Kate Lindsay (42:49.459)
platforms have started to realize, you know, I think there's been a fatigue now though of when people post these Just being billboards just posting for other people and not really getting anything because if everyone is like, okay, I'm a poster No one is a It's either you're a poster or a lurker, but you're not the you're not just a person connecting with friends And so it's like those are two very if those are the only options. Those are two very empty positions and I think people are starting to not

Sean Lukasik (43:10.834)
Yeah, it's not a conversation.

Kate Lindsay (43:19.687)
feel fulfilled by either one anymore. And that's why Instagram was saying they've seen the most growth in DMs. And it's why there's that great insider piece about group chats becoming the thing. And like dark social is now what brands are talking about with people texting and things that they can't see. Cause I think, and I think all that is a reaction to being like, we went so hard in one direction and now social media is actually very lonely. And so, yeah, like my, I was thinking my group chat is,

Sean Lukasik (43:33.026)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (43:49.043)
really, I tweet my articles and that's it, because any fun thoughts I have, I just spam my group chat with them, I'm sure, to their annoyance. Because that's where I know I'm not going to get a numeric value put on my thought, which I always... That was why I stopped doing it on Twitter, because I don't like that my life is being evaluated this way. And also, it's just... These are the people I care about telling these things, too.

Sean Lukasik (43:56.566)
Thank you.

Sean Lukasik (44:16.886)
Right.

Yeah. And if you want to make sure that they're seeing the updates or whatever, like that's the best way to make sure they do. Now, every year I give a social media trends presentation in just here locally. Um, and it's, it's pretty.

Kate Lindsay (44:19.403)
So yeah, it's a weird time. Right, right, uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (44:29.547)
Mm.

Sean Lukasik (44:33.55)
widely attended and it's very popular conversation. And so I'm just gonna like start prepping for it now because it's usually the first quarter of the year by asking you, what do you what do you think like, just and I think this is a good way to end but like, looking at the landscape, and how much it's changed this year, especially like, more people posting to LinkedIn, Twitter all but like folding in on itself threads, exploding and then disappearing as fast as it showed up.

Kate Lindsay (44:34.583)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (44:43.904)
Hahaha

Kate Lindsay (44:53.076)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (45:01.672)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (45:03.658)
Where do you think the social media landscape is going? Short term, like 2024, and like, do you think about these things further out than that? Or is it even possible to do that?

Kate Lindsay (45:10.305)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (45:18.271)
Yeah, I mean, so it's hard, because I have felt for the past few years, like we were certainly at some type of breaking point. And I think there's not like a dramatic breaking point, but we're in like it right now with all these things like falling apart. I don't, I think it's that like, and I was seeing someone else say this, so this is like not my thought, but that we don't have room.

Sean Lukasik (45:33.334)
Thank you.

Kate Lindsay (45:47.179)
for all the apps that are being introduced right now. We only have like about, I think this was someone who was an original co-founder of Instagram who is not with them anymore. He was giving a talk or answering question and this is how he described it. And so, and this is what I kind of agree with is that there's always gonna be kind of three in rotation because we just don't have the ability to be giving that much of ourselves to like.

Sean Lukasik (45:55.936)
Mm.

Kate Lindsay (46:15.735)
seeing like a Harry Potter, like we can't split our soul into that many different things, like you become weaker. And so I think what it is we're seeing, we're seeing definitely Twitter fall off, Facebook. It's like, I wanna say Facebook has fallen off, but it's fallen off culturally, but I don't think we're gonna see it be, I think it's fallen off culturally in the sense that a lot of an old-

Sean Lukasik (46:18.591)
Yeah. Great.

Sean Lukasik (46:35.287)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (46:41.887)
the older generation is on it and a lot of the younger generation is not joining it. So we're not going to see, not to be morbid, but until we kind of hit a cliff where the users who are on it originally are no longer active and then it hasn't been adopted by the new people. That's when we're going to see it materially, I think, go down. But so it's like, what are, what is, I, my theory, if I were to guess, is like, as much as I complain about Instagram, I'm like, my cat is.

Sean Lukasik (46:49.159)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Lukasik (47:10.894)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (47:11.103)
I might have to do something. I don't know, he's just getting, but as much as I complain about Instagram, I don't think people are gonna leave, but I've heard it described as like, that's Gen Z's Facebook, where they're like, they don't really use it, but they're on it because everyone else is on it. And so I do think when other apps like Twitter fall apart, it's gonna, people are gonna go back and.

Sean Lukasik (47:23.182)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (47:35.987)
It's like, I don't have a specific concrete prediction for where things are gonna go, but I do know that these companies are dictated by the collective action of their users. I was having this conversation after Taylor Lorenz, with Taylor Lorenz after her book came out, where it's just like the entire history of the decision-making of all these different platforms has been dictated by what power users on the platforms have been doing. And so,

Sean Lukasik (47:48.267)
Right.

Kate Lindsay (48:04.923)
It's platforms jobs to adapt and serve the people who are on it because the community is their product. And so what I think will happen is that as these things fall apart, people will shift and these new dominant platforms will emerge. Maybe it'll be LinkedIn because I've similarly heard everyone's going back to LinkedIn. And then now that they have that larger concentration of people, they will adapt to what it is those people want from it. And so...

Instagram is already adapting when they, because they notice like, oh, DMs are happening. And so I think from there, we're going to see, it's going to make changes for that. But then I also think, like I mentioned this sort of, I do think texting, group chats, these types of things, I think there's a big discussion of like, is that social media? And I think it is, it is in the purest form. And I also think, because I'm always thinking about stuff in terms of like, traffic for like articles and stuff.

Sean Lukasik (48:45.568)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (49:00.223)
For me, I think that's, you know, Twitter was never great, but also Twitter is making it just impossible to click on a article anymore. Like they're doing everything they're power to get rid of it. Instagram is really kind of hard with links. And for me, I feel like, like when I write a story for GQ, like I, the way I describe what I wanna write for it is I write a lot about relationship stuff and I want it to be.

Sean Lukasik (49:07.79)
Mm-hmm.

Kate Lindsay (49:26.771)
something that a girlfriend sends to their boyfriend to be like, this is you, or like vice versa. And I've seen that happen. The problem with that is you can't see it happening, you can't track it, that's why it's dark social. But I've seen someone posted a screenshot of, the one that I know it was used in this way was, I just wrote a piece called How to Take a Picture of Your Girlfriend, because it's something that I found boyfriends have trouble with. And so I consulted a photographer to be like, what are some steps?

Sean Lukasik (49:30.427)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sean Lukasik (49:38.306)
Right.

Sean Lukasik (49:52.618)
Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (49:56.435)
And that piece, I saw screenshots of girlfriends sending it to their boyfriend to be like, you need this. Or I know for a couple who I'm friends with, it became a meme for them because he has taken so many bad pictures of her that they'll replace the photo that went with the story with one of the ones he's taken to kind of, and they'll use it as a meme format. And then I'm like, that is very meaningful engagement with the story. And that feels like.

Sean Lukasik (50:21.326)
Truly, yeah.

Kate Lindsay (50:23.615)
better to me than someone just liking it on Twitter, especially because people like stuff on Twitter without reading the thing exclusively. I mean, I do it too. And so this, it's hard. But basically I do not have an answer to really sum it up. I think texting will continue to be pretty dominant, but I also think that as these platforms fall away, the sort of three that are in rotation, that'll always be a thing and they will always adapt to.

Sean Lukasik (50:28.35)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Kate Lindsay (50:52.299)
the concentration of users that are on it and what they want. And also TikTok is not going anywhere. That's my little button of it all.

Sean Lukasik (50:58.026)
Yeah, for sure. Love that. Well, and I love the way that your mind works. And I love how you share it with us. The the newsletter is embedded through Substack and highly recommend that. Kate, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about all these ideas. And, and honestly, like, I would love to have you back because it's just brings up more and more and more questions. And I know that you'll have a lot more written, you know, every day. So thank you so much for taking

Kate Lindsay (51:03.931)
Okay.

Kate Lindsay (51:21.022)
No, absolutely.

Kate Lindsay (51:27.478)
Thank you. Yeah, happy to come back anytime. This was great.

Sean Lukasik (51:32.526)
me.