The Paesanos Podcast

Sean Lukasik:
All right, Michelle Icard, welcome to the Paesanos podcast. Thanks for joining me.

Michelle Icard:
Hi Sean, thanks for having me.

Sean Lukasik:
So you are an expert in adolescence and middle school aged parenting and kids going through whatever they go through in middle school. And I know you've been asked this lots of times because in my research and in some of the conversations I've listened that you've been a part of, people often say, why in the world would you become an expert in children of that age? Because It's a tough age and anyone who is a parent, or in my case, who has young kids in my life through a relationship or through my nieces and nephew knows that there's a lot happening at that age. So I hope that we would start by you just talking a little bit about what drew you to this work that you do.

Michelle Icard:
Sure, I would say that I am an expert in as much as anyone could possibly be an expert on this age because it is an ever-changing, ever-evolving, ever-surprising age group. And that's why I love it. I was drawn to it because I think kids and early adolescents are fascinating and they are evolving and they are developing a sense of self and who they are in the world and that's chaotic. and also important and interesting. So I've been doing this work now for 20 years and I love reading about this age and diving deep into the research on it and spending time with kids this age. So that's kind of what attracted me to it is a little bit the volatility of it, I think is interesting. And what has sustained my interest in it, I think is the hopefulness of it that... that kids this age really do represent change. I mean, they're constantly changing before our very eyes, physically, emotionally, developmentally, intellectually, and that represents a great deal of promise for us, I think. So that's what I love.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, and anyone listening to this can certainly think back to when they were that age and all of the volatility and change and all of the things that you just mentioned, you know, that we all went through ourselves. But for, for many people and for myself included, we didn't have the, this added complexity of the internet and the cell phones and social media. But now that's just a reality. And I think that's the one that we're going to focus most on today. So I'll just say upfront, you know, Michelle covers so much about this topic. And as she said, is as much of an expert as anyone can be on, um, you know, children aged 13 and up, um, basically. And, uh, but we, I want to focus on the, the role that the internet plays in, um, early childhood development and adolescent development, because, um, it's something that, you know, as, as we become parents now and kids of the next generation are starting to become this age and going through all the things you just described. There is that added complexity. And I wonder if we could just start with sort of some general thoughts. I know you've done a lot of writing and thinking and speaking on this topic specifically and maybe something foundational that we can kind of launch from.

Michelle Icard:
Sure. So I've never actually articulated this before, but when you were speaking, I thought, oh, so let's play with this idea that just occurred to me, but it feels, when you said the internet is sort of the new component of growing up, I thought, yeah, man, the internet is kind of the extra parent and the extra friend and the unnamed enemy and all of these components that were a little bit chaotic in our own. upbringings, the internet now plays that role and plays all of those roles. So sometimes it's the friend, sometimes it's the frenemy, sometimes it's the comforter, sometimes it's the instigator, sometimes it's the abuser, sometimes it's the champion. So it's all of these things. And I don't demonize technology or the internet or social media for that reason, because I think it is a tool. And what I say when I talk to kids and when I talk to parents is like any tool, it can't be helpful unless it's also harmful. So the stove that you have in your house can't cook your dinner unless it's hot enough to burn your hand. Every tool that we love can also hurt us. And so I think it's really important when we have this conversation with each other, and especially with our kids, that we recognize the value this tool provides in our lives instead of demonizing it.

Sean Lukasik:
I love that analogy too, about the stove because the stove is optimized to be hot enough in a very specific area and the area on which you would cook obviously. And, um, you know, if, if you're, if your goal is to touch it with your hands or with something that's not protecting or meant to be there, then it's, you're going to get burned, um, and in the same way, you know, social media is optimized for engagement, it's optimized for, um, likes. comments, shares, and unfortunately, what we've learned over time is a lot of what generates engagement is actually not the things that we that generate engagement in real life. And so the difference is, it's meant to generate engagement in this very small space, but there's so much more in terms of engagement that kids can can experience out in the world. And this becomes just such a dominant, the phone itself becomes just such a dominant role. And what you said, it's apparent, it's a friend. It's

Michelle Icard:
Great.

Sean Lukasik:
all of those things. And so that's an interesting analogy.

Michelle Icard:
Well,

Sean Lukasik:
I like

Michelle Icard:
yeah,

Sean Lukasik:
that.

Michelle Icard:
and I love what you just said that it demands engagement in a way that isn't the way we naturally normally engage. If I saw someone screaming in a Walmart when I was there, I would run in the other direction,

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
right? I would avoid that person. But if I see it on a TikTok, I'm like, let me see more.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Icard:
I gotta watch this fire burn, right? So that's me, an adult with a formed sense of who I am watching from a safe distance. But it's a different thing when kids are forming opinions about who they are and what they believe in and they're watching. So again, I'm not totally for or against, but I want parents to have conversations like what you just said. Like how does this mimic or how is it the antithesis of our real lives?

Sean Lukasik:
Well, what's the biggest source of fear that you think parents have when when you're having these conversations or you're giving talks You know you get a lot of questions. I'm sure what is the number one fear that you think parents have as Their kids start to become an age where social media is just part of everyday life

Michelle Icard:
I would say that there is not one that I can broadly say all parents share, but I will say there is a group of parents who fear the worst case scenario. And for them, that is my child's going to be groomed online, picked up at 2 a.m. from our driveway and taken off as a sex slave. I mean, just like the absolute weirdest thing. So that is one. bucket. And what I say about that is, yes, you don't want to set your kid up for that, but the chances of that happening are probably pretty small compared to the more likely things that might happen, which is that they start to believe misogynistic or racist things because they are overintroduced to them online. So that's another one. For some parents, there is a fear that their child will be bullied or will be exposed to things that ding their self-esteem to the point that they get so many dings, they are just done. So that's another big one that comes up. I think a sort of a lack of human interaction and socializing is another big one. I mean, there are so many, there are so many fears around this, but there's a wide spectrum.

Sean Lukasik:
Sure, that makes a lot of sense. And just as there are many fears, I imagine there are many solutions and approaches to those fears. And, you know, again, as someone who doesn't have kids myself, but who has kids in my life, I might my first instinct is always to think, what can I do to protect these kids as much as possible? And I'd like to think that I could just remove all of it and and just say, you know what, you're not using it. But I know that that's not realistic. And I know that that's not what you have talked and written about, whether it's about internet use, or really any approach at all. So can you share a little bit about what the general kind of healthy approaches and your perspective in terms of how to parent through the use of the device, the use of the media, and just what they might come across on the internet as a whole.

Michelle Icard:
Sure. What we know about teenagers is that regardless of the subject, an abstinence only approach doesn't work. So we know that about sex ed, we know that about lots of things. Kids are driven as they go through adolescence, they are driven to take risks and they are driven to become independent and that means separating from their parent. And so a lot of times that means or feels to them like they ought to disagree with, take a stance against, fight with. They're parents because that's the only way that they know to differentiate and become independent It's a messy start but and it usually ends up working out great But that that's how it begins. And so if we come at technology with this Understandable instinct to say no, no, no, don't touch that's a hot stove. I want you to go near it They're gonna touch the stove.

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
So what we need to do instead is talk about that talk about the stove Talk about the Internet talk about social media specifically, not be vague. When we talk in platitudes about danger because we're afraid we're gonna put something on our kids' radar, it's of no service to them. So we need to be really specific, do research and understand what the platforms are. And you don't have to be an expert. Your kid is the expert. They can fill in the

Sean Lukasik:
Mm.

Michelle Icard:
blanks for you, but know enough to be able to start a conversation. Hey, what are your thoughts about TikTok being banned in, well, I don't know, whatever state just banned it, starts with an M.

Sean Lukasik:
Okay.

Michelle Icard:
You know, which state just banned it? Minnesota, Minnesota.

Sean Lukasik:
Well, Utah, I know recently made some pretty major changes around the use of social media specifically,

Michelle Icard:
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik:
but I don't know

Michelle Icard:
I feel

Sean Lukasik:
what

Michelle Icard:
like another

Sean Lukasik:
state

Michelle Icard:
state now is anyway, that we'll see this happening. More and more states will try to do this. So if you have a gateway sort of prompt like that, that like you can be dumb like me. In fact, that works really well. You can say,

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
I can't remember. I don't know what I heard. I heard something about this. Can you fill me in? Your kid will know. And so I think what we need to do. to help our kids use these tools effectively and they are gonna mess up. They are gonna touch the hot stove. They are gonna post something really bad or whatever it may be. Don't get hung up on that. Do not get hung up on the fact that they are gonna make a mistake. Whenever your child starts to learn to use a new tool, whether that is the stove or learning how to drive a car or how to hammer something or the lawnmower, they're gonna mess up. Of course they are, so be okay with that. but keep the conversation going and keep it open and talk about how the tool works and the good things that can happen and the bad things that can happen. When your child knows that you are being balanced about it, they're far more likely to keep talking to you and learning from you about how to continue using the tool.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, you said something. And this was an interview or a podcast interview did a couple years ago, about, you know, taking the approach of letting the adolescent create their own plan. And I recently was able to have a conversation with a 13 year old boy in my life, who was, you know, having some issues at school and So I had just gotten done listening to that podcast interview and I said, what's your plan for this? And do you want help with it? Do you want help creating a plan or do you have one? Um, and he kind of sat back for a second. As if to say, I don't, what do you mean? My plan, you know,

Michelle Icard:
No one's ever

Sean Lukasik:
but

Michelle Icard:
asked me that.

Sean Lukasik:
yeah, right, right. Or he, he had never thought of it. Um, and, uh, I was really proud of the way that he thought through and did create a plan. And I think, um, you know, that's, that's advice that, that you gave and that you've given for a lot of different scenarios that I sounds like as you're describing, some of this could really help in this situation as well. If they post something they shouldn't have posted, or if they get a message, they shouldn't have gotten or wished they didn't get, um, you know, they might actually be formulating a plan already. And. maybe pulling it out of them is a good idea.

Michelle Icard:
I love to hear you say that.

Sean Lukasik:
Well, and it's thanks to you. So I appreciate that.

Michelle Icard:
And that's not why I love it, but really,

Sean Lukasik:
Hahaha!

Michelle Icard:
it sounds good coming from you.

Sean Lukasik:
Hahaha

Michelle Icard:
I think we want kids to develop their critical thinking skills. And we want them to develop their problem solving skills. And if we don't give them an opportunity to practice doing that, they don't get better at it. And then we expect them at age 18 to go off to college or- the military or get a job or whatever it may be, junior college, who knows, and be able to solve their own problems and be able to email their boss or their professor or whatever. And we expect miraculously with age for this to happen, but it only happens through experience. And we all know that when you start doing something for the first time, you're pretty bad at it. And they will be initially. So ask what the plan is. They're gonna say something really. you know, might be not good.

Sean Lukasik:
Hahaha.

Michelle Icard:
Maybe the plan is, well, I'm gonna post something terrible about them because

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
they posted something terrible about me. And really what you wanna do is not squash that and make them embarrassed to come up with ideas, but say, oh, interesting. So let's talk about what would happen if you did that. Talk me through how would their friends react? What if your parent or teacher saw what you posted? Let's just think that through. And also does that get to the root of really solving your problem? Or is it just sort of a temporary fix? So

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
being a neutral sounding board for kids as they try to become better problem solvers is key, I think, to developing better problem solvers.

Sean Lukasik:
And we, I mean, the internet, the way that we use it today, you know, thinking about social media and, and even like the endless scroll and the timelines and, and, and that that sort of part of the internet is, is only an adolescent itself. It's only a teenager itself. You know, that, that version of Facebook that we know and use today is only about 15 to 20 years old. And so we've all seen adults make those same mistakes. And even ourselves, I know that there have been times where I've said the thing back. And now I know, just not to engage. Now I know that, you know, I just don't want to have those types of conversations. But, but I had to experience that for myself, even even as an adult, and go through all of those. phases of social media because it hasn't been around that long. And so of course, you know, kids are going to do the same thing and they're going to see the same results and ultimately know better not to do those things in the future.

Michelle Icard:
It's very hard for anyone to learn from someone else's experience. It's why our kids don't learn when we say, here's a mistake I made,

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
don't make the same mistake. We learn from experience. We learn from feeling, not from hearing.

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
And so I think we have to accept that that's just part of growing up, whether it's the internet or an in real life friendship or whatever it may be, you just

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
have to learn from feeling.

Sean Lukasik:
Now you've established some pretty in depth programs for both girls and boys. You have Athena's path and heroes pursuit. And these are programs that work with kids in their own community, week after week after week. And these are programs that are designed, as I said, specifically for girls or for boys. And I wonder, you know, as you've developed these programs, and as you've you've come across the unique, um, uh, ways that girls and boys, um, develop and change through adolescence and the experiences that they have. Um, I wonder if you can talk about how those experiences on the internet might be different for boys and girls and the way that the internet could be potentially helpful or harmful for each.

Michelle Icard:
I can talk about it anecdotally. I don't have, so there's been some really interesting research recently about girls in the internet. There may be some about boys that I have not seen that is specific, but I don't have a lot of great research on boys and girls using the internet differently and how they benefit or are hurt by it. But I can tell you anecdotally that what I'm hearing from parents and what I'm seeing in my work. With regard to boys, and this sort of goes back to your question about what is one of the biggest fears, a lot of concern around boys being influenced by male influencers. So people like Andrew Tate, for example,

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
he's the big name out there, or other people who are spreading really harmful ideologies and young boys tend to be sensitive to that and defensive of that. So that's a big thing. And for girls, I see it more, their use and parental concern more around relationships, relationship building among their peers, and also concerns about what they are internalizing in terms of body image and that kind of stuff. Though I really see that entering boy territory almost as much as it does

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
for girls. So... So I think the gap is closing,

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah

Michelle Icard:
not in a great way, but in the sense that we are seeing these issues cross genders. I don't know if that answers your question. I think it's really a complex one, but I would say boys and girls are using the internet differently. Boys certainly, we know use it more for gaming. Plenty

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
of girls love games and love gaming, but we know percentage wise that more boys do. And we know that boys are are more into YouTube than girls. And so they're seeing more of these recommended videos that we're talking about. And girls are a little bit more relational at an earlier age. And so they're more interested in things like Snapchat and places where they can converse, although boys are conversing while gaming. So,

Sean Lukasik:
Sure,

Michelle Icard:
yeah.

Sean Lukasik:
sure. Well, that makes sense. And I appreciate that that insight. I know that the book that you've got over your shoulder there, 14

Michelle Icard:
Hmm.

Sean Lukasik:
Talks, is really great. And I've got a copy of it myself. It's one of those books that you go back to time and time again, and not to read it cover to cover, but to really pick out the resources, you know, in each section of the book. So thank you, first of all, for putting that into the world, because what an incredible research for even people like me who don't have kids myself.

Michelle Icard:
Thank you so much.

Sean Lukasik:
Um, so one of the concepts that you address in there is this idea between, um, independence and, and, and kids seeking independence either through isolation or through exploration. Um, and I wonder if you could just kind of talk about that, um, and, and what the difference is between those two.

Michelle Icard:
Sure. At the beginning of adolescence, we see kids develop this need and this urge to become more independent. And there are two ways that they sort of strike out. One is through exploration, and that's exploring the world around them without a parent nearby or a guardian. So that's riding their bikes further distances, going to visit friends without parents being there as part of the play date, going to the mall unsupervised, these kinds of things. exploration or exploring their world. And then we have isolation and that is cocooning essentially often in their bedrooms. So that is what many parents report as kind of the the dark times when their kids go into their room and shut the door and they don't want to come out for family game

Sean Lukasik:
Mm.

Michelle Icard:
night or movie night and they don't want to go to the store with their mom anymore or their dad and they're just like I want to be alone in my room and that can last. for days, they'll come out to eat, but then right back in, headphones on in their room. That's a really important part of growing up. It's a safe way for kids to explore being independent with a still a safety net there of the parents are home and they are not out in the world alone, but they are deep in their thoughts and deep in sort of discovering who they are apart from their family.

Sean Lukasik:
Mm hmm. So when when I when I read about that, and I learned about that concept from you, I realized that I kind of use my phone or the internet as a whole for both of those things,

Michelle Icard:
Hmm.

Sean Lukasik:
I might use it for isolation, I might, you know, dig into the New York Times crossword app for a long time and just want to kind of decompress and be on my own. And I also might use it for exploration, I might, you know, look up topics that I'm interested in, I might try to improve my golf swing on YouTube. Do you find that that children are using it for both of those things? Or is it even a tool that we should be thinking about in terms of, you know, independence and and a tool that that adolescents should be using for that level of exploration?

Michelle Icard:
I think that's brilliant and I'm gonna use it in my talks. Going forward. Yes, it is complete. It is the perfect tool for isolation and exploration both. And I think with teens, we see it in just the same ways that you're talking about. Maybe they're watching YouTube videos of ways to do their hair, right? And sort of tutorials on things. And that is a way of isolating. It's also a way of exploring. It's... almost the one place where you can do both

Sean Lukasik:
Mm. Mm.

Michelle Icard:
of those things

Sean Lukasik:
Mm. Mm.

Michelle Icard:
at the same

Sean Lukasik:
Mm. Mm.

Michelle Icard:
exact time. I can isolate from my family, be in my room, and be exploring the larger

Sean Lukasik:
Mm.

Michelle Icard:
world through this device. So that's really good. I like that. I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I think that, yeah, so we have to be thoughtful about how we talk about it, again, not demonizing it, but also being very cautious that It is a gateway to the world. And there's a lot of stuff out there that your child can be exposed to. Some of it is blatant and we understand that. Some of it is andro-tate and we get it. There's a video

Sean Lukasik:
Sure.

Michelle Icard:
from a guy and he's not good and we understand that. And some of it is more subtle. So it's just not knowing how many times your kid is seeing people post photos of events that they haven't been invited to, right? That's the subtle side of things where it's like. Gosh, someone's not putting this in my kid's face, but they are being exposed nonetheless.

Sean Lukasik:
Sure Sorry, I think we kind of already talked about one of the questions I asked I'm gonna skip down So Several years ago you wrote about this decision to kind of stop monitoring monitoring that you stopped monitoring your kids texts all together But when you wrote about that you also said that tweens are biologically and development tweens are biologically and developmentally driven to take risks. But you're still encouraging parents to stop hovering and stop giving constant feedback. Can you just kind of expand on that approach? Because I think when I read that article, I felt like it really got quickly to the core of this whole conversation about its risky behavior, but parents aren't um, doing their children, uh, a real service by hovering and just trying to get in there. And I know you've kind of talked about that a lot already, but, um, but I felt like that was such a concise way. And so maybe your decision about why you just stopped monitoring your, your kids texts altogether, um, would be a great succinct way to kind of talk about that.

Michelle Icard:
Well, I think it's important to begin by saying, initially, you should.

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
When your child first learns how to use a phone, when they first get iChat, or whatever device they're using to begin communicating with friends, you're gonna wanna be aware of what they're doing and what they're saying. And so initially, with your child's understanding of this, you monitor, you take note and say, okay, listen, hey, I saw that you sent your friend 15 texts when they said they were having dinner with their family and couldn't talk right now. Let's just talk

Sean Lukasik:
Mm.

Michelle Icard:
about that. So, and I would like for parents to probably focus more on etiquette initially than on those big broad fears of is my child going to be abducted? Again, I'm not saying don't worry about that. Have conversations and safeguard against that, but balance that against the reality of what they. they really are probably doing that's not great online, which is sending a million cat memes to someone while they're at work, right?

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Michelle Icard:
So be sure to talk about the broad range of what you expect, monitor for a while to be sure that they're doing what you expect, and then slowly back off. So any parent who's monitored their early tweens text knows that they are incredibly boring. It's like, hey, sup, sup, meme, emoji, bleh. It just goes on forever and ever and ever. And that's great for them, but you don't need to get dragged down by how boring that is.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
And the other thing that you don't need to get dragged down by is when things get a little bit controversial. So if someone says a little bit of a racy comment, or they use a swear word, or there's a your mom joke, any of those things... are really common and normal, and it's a way for kids to feel like they are taking risks and behaving a little badly without anything really bad happening. So I know parents who've said, this kid is using terrible language on their text, should I tell their mom? And I'm like, well, it depends. If they're just trying to have a little bravado and use some interesting words, it's probably not a problem. If they are hurting someone with their language, if they're repeatedly making fun of someone. then maybe that's a conversation you need to have. But I just feel like the monitoring so often is too intense and also lacks focus. Because I don't think parents really think about what they're monitoring for. They're just like, I'm just looking for bad stuff.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, right.

Michelle Icard:
And you don't really know what bad stuff is. So I think that requires a little bit of deep thinking.

Sean Lukasik:
That makes sense. I work with a lot of clients who are hesitant to get on, um, you know, put their companies, for example, on, on a site like Twitter, um, because they just don't know about it or even tick tock, you know, that's where a lot of the conversations are happening now. Um, and one of the things that I recommend to them is just make an account, just go there so that you can learn what the language is like on Twitter versus LinkedIn or Facebook, where you're already comfortable. Um, what are the conversations like on a site like tick tock as opposed to again, Facebook or LinkedIn. Um, and that's a, usually a good first step for, for business owners. And I imagine it's a good first step for, for kids as well to just get on there and experience, um, and, and listen and talk and have conversations. Um, because, uh, You know, that's when we learn what those like nonverbal cues are too. When people then don't respond or they just give you the thumbs up or something. You know, we've learned over time in our own use that, Oh, I've, I'm talking too much or I said something wrong here. Um, and that might be something that kids can learn by, by just messing up on their own in a safe way.

Michelle Icard:
I totally agree with that and I love the corporate analogy. It's one that I use often when I'm talking to parents. So I like that you said, this is how we advise businesses and it's probably good advice for parents too. Parents tend to get overly emotional. It's really understandable. You love your child, you're invested, you're frustrated by your child, all these things. But if you can pretend that you are a supervisor to your child when they are driving you nuts or when they're making decisions that you don't agree with Put some space between you and that kid and think about if I were this child's boss at work, if they were my employee, how would I give them advice here? It's probably not by screaming at them, we hope. It's probably not by telling them about things you did as a kid,

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Icard:
how you messed up and what they should learn from. You'd give them, we hope, some really... concrete, actionable advice. Here's what I'm seeing, here's what I think could help you improve. You know, here are some areas that need work and here are some areas where you're really shining and almost take on that role of a boss employee and it removes a layer of emotion that clouds things and makes it really difficult to work through. So I think that's really important when we're talking about parents and kids talking about technology, because parents get on their heels. and they feel afraid and they feel worried or angry, and then kids stop listening.

Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm. I want to shift gears a little bit and just talk about some of what you're consuming in terms of pop culture, either with your kids or without them at all. One of the shows that we just watched and I've got an eight year old and a 13 year old in my life now. And the good place was a show that we could all watch that brought up some interesting conversations, had, you know, jokes that flew right over the eight year old's head, but. was just incredible to watch. But I wonder what you would recommend or what you're watching that would be a good one for us because we're done with that now. So we're looking

Michelle Icard:
Yeah.

Sean Lukasik:
for the next thing.

Michelle Icard:
Do you know that this is my very favorite question

Sean Lukasik:
Hahaha

Michelle Icard:
for anyone to ask me ever is what should I watch on TV? I

Sean Lukasik:
Awesome.

Michelle Icard:
love TV and I love podcasts and I love pop culture. So this is a dream. Good Place was excellent. Now my kids are almost 21 and almost 23. So they're not even at home anymore,

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
but we still watch stuff together and. and talk about it. I just did a huge love is blind debrief with my daughter before

Sean Lukasik:
Oh yeah.

Michelle Icard:
I got on here. It's probably not something your eight-year-old would be interested in.

Sean Lukasik:
Now.

Michelle Icard:
You're a 13-year-old and you could have some great conversations about this. So what do I recommend for family viewing? It's been a while since I've watched shows with tweens. People have told me that the new quantum leap, have you watched it? It's a reboot.

Sean Lukasik:
No.

Michelle Icard:
People have said that it's amazing. It's got a very diverse cast. It's great for young kids. It's thoughtful. So that might be a good one for you guys to at least check out. And then I'm trying to think. So me personally, I've been into a lot of podcasts lately. I love If Books Could Kill. Do you know that one? It's, yeah.

Sean Lukasik:
I don't know, but

Michelle Icard:
That's right.

Sean Lukasik:
I'm writing these things down as if we're not recording this whole conversation,

Michelle Icard:
That's right.

Sean Lukasik:
but.

Michelle Icard:
If Books Could Kill is about the books that have most terribly influenced our culture over the past 20 years

Sean Lukasik:
Oh wow.

Michelle Icard:
or so and it's funny and it's smart. I love it. I love maintenance phase it's that one I think is particularly important for parents to listen to because I think parents do a lot of unintended damage talking about health and wellness with their kids

Sean Lukasik:
Mm.

Michelle Icard:
and It sends skewed messages that that end up getting distorted in terms of how a teen views their body So that podcast is highly informative and again, funny. So those are my favorites right now.

Sean Lukasik:
Thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm a big podcast listener myself and obviously, podcaster. I love the conversations that john Favreau has on his offline podcast. If you haven't listened to those, you can kind of go through, you know, just guest by guest or topic by topic. Some of them are fantastic. Some of them are, you know, just kind of the dangers of the internet as a whole. But the concept is, you know, the the role that the internet plays and it's similar to this podcast as well. So I would recommend that one to you as long as we're

Michelle Icard:
Great.

Sean Lukasik:
chatting

Michelle Icard:
Yeah,

Sean Lukasik:
about

Michelle Icard:
that's

Sean Lukasik:
it.

Michelle Icard:
terrific. And I wanna

Sean Lukasik:
Um,

Michelle Icard:
say, I won't do this for another two hours, but if you haven't watched Rutherford Falls, did you watch that? It's on Peacock.

Sean Lukasik:
No,

Michelle Icard:
It's

Sean Lukasik:
no.

Michelle Icard:
only two seasons, sadly, but it's a great family sitcom.

Sean Lukasik:
Brotherford Falls.

Michelle Icard:
Yeah,

Sean Lukasik:
Thank

Michelle Icard:
it touches

Sean Lukasik:
you.

Michelle Icard:
on a lot of issues that will bring up good conversation, but it is a family show. You'll love it.

Sean Lukasik:
Well, and the reason why I wanted to ask that question is because I think it's easier when a topic comes up naturally and you're in a setting that it's easy to get your kids into, you know, let's sit in front of the television and have dessert or just hang out together and you know, no pressure, those things do come up and it does bring up conversations that you could either have in the moment if that's the right time or you can bring up later. And, and so I was curious from your perspective, you know, what, what would be good for those things and I do happen to know that you like to binge

Michelle Icard:
Yes,

Sean Lukasik:
TV shows. So

Michelle Icard:
I talk about it

Sean Lukasik:
yeah,

Michelle Icard:
a lot.

Sean Lukasik:
yeah.

Michelle Icard:
Yeah, you're smart. Using other resources as a way to prompt conversations is so comfortable for kids because they don't want you talking about them. They'll be suspicious that you think they've done something wrong or you're bringing it up because you have a concern. When you really just wanna open the door to good, robust, healthy, fun conversation, TV is often the way to do it.

Sean Lukasik:
Um, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think about, you know, the fact that they might think, why are you bringing this up? What is the reason for this? And so you could even use the television

Michelle Icard:
Right.

Sean Lukasik:
show as a cover for that.

Michelle Icard:
Yes!

Sean Lukasik:
That's great. Thank you. Well, Michelle, thank you so much. Um, is there anything else I know that, that you just, um, this is, this is what you do day in and day out and you do a lot of writing and media appearances. And I appreciate you taking the time for this one as well. Um, is there anything else that, that you wanted to share on the topic of, you know, kind of the internet as a whole and the role that it plays in, in either building relationships with our kids or the relationships that kids are building themselves with their own friends.

Michelle Icard:
I would say find things to love about the internet and the role the internet plays in your family's life. Absolutely guard against the dangers as best you can. I mean, it's like we do with riding in a car. We guard against it as best we can. We know accidents are gonna happen. So do that, but also find things that you love and that your children love and find joy in those things and share them. So if that's a TikTok account, you follow together, or if that is doing the crossword together on the weekends, whatever it may be, take an online class, do something with your child using that technology as a bridge to better communication because it will work really well.

Sean Lukasik:
Thank you. I know my homework this week is to build a Roblox character so that I can get a tour of Roblox because I have not been in there yet and I've been asked recently. So that's

Michelle Icard:
That's

Sean Lukasik:
I think

Michelle Icard:
adorable.

Sean Lukasik:
one way. Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
That's adorable.

Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.

Michelle Icard:
I hope you have fun.

Sean Lukasik:
Oh, thanks. Thanks. And thanks so much for joining me and for doing this. I hope you have a great week.

Michelle Icard:
You too, thanks, Sean.